Squared Circles
27
September
Within the last two months or so I have heard of some mysterious concept that I am finding great difficulty in swallowing.
Apparently, there is something called “positive tribalism“. Every time I hear this I struggle to know which way to react. Generally it is one or a combination of the following:
- Huh?
- What
- WHAT?!
- WTF??
I have tried very hard to bend my mind around this concept and failed.
Every time I hear that phrase it occurs to me that it might just one of the most most ridiculous things I have ever heard, chiefly because if there WAS such a thing, then by logical extension there would certainly exist mind boggling things like positive bigotry and positive racism.
This strikes me as the very clever shadow puppeting that allows people to sneak in elitist bigotry masquerading as pride in one’s culture into making unfortunate ridiculous crass mind numbingly stupid comments like “it is time for one of our own to be in State House”.
By and large, people who purport to be “agitating for the rights of their people” or “fighting for their community” or “fostering political unity of their community” by and large tend to be talking through their nether regions.
And what is this pride in culture anyway? (Nebulous canned responses about pride in one’s roots can be left at the door). What exactly is it to be proud of one’s culture?
Which further beggars the question, if this “pride in culture” is what is being abused left right and center, and used as the cloak over our elitism, so much so that it is becoming increasingly apparent that the more we identify ourselves as Kikuyu, Luo, Meru, Giriama, Luhya, Kisii, Kamba etc, the less and less we identify ourselves as Kenyans, what use is it?
Until human beings develop the emotional and intellectual capacity enough to really celebrate our differences, and not just talk the cliche, we need to give serious thought to leaving our Kikuyu-ness and our Luo-ness, our Kenyan-ness and our Tanzanian-ness, our Israeli-ness and our Palestinian-ness, our African-ness and our Asian-ness, our Blackness and our Whiteness, our Christianity and our Islam at the door and walk in what we all are — humans.
So tell me all about this “positive tribalism“. Because as of now — I don’t believe a damn word.
Blessed Union Of Souls - I Believe
1. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | September 27th, 2006 at 2:48 am
Yo! Did I really make it in first????
BTW, KenGen announced their results!
2. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | September 27th, 2006 at 3:14 am
Well, now that apparently I did post first (pure psychology… no tangible benefit)… here is the serious stuff…
http://www.coldtusker.blogspot.com can link you up to the KenGen announcement/info…
Hmmm… I am glad kibz & co semi-privatised KenGen coz it keeps the grubby fingers out! I hope they privatise Safaricom soon but I think Telkom will be ripped off coz Safaricom is “controlled” by Vodaphone.
So “Positive Tribalism”… is it me ama its normally the Luhyas & Kambas who keep on drumming on & on about “one of their own”?
In any case, I don’t give a s**t what tribe the Prez is… as long as he is COMPETENT…
Options:
#1 - Corporate types who don’t brook BS & are proven leaders.
Candidates:
Titus Naikuni (KQ - I love the guy… SMART & he will kick your ass out of gov’t if you don’t perform) He would clean up the government in a jiffy!
Manu Chandaria (Chandaria Industries) - Experienced, Respected, Clean (he doesn’t need more chumz!)
Suresh Shah (ex-Uchumi Supermarkets) - Smart, Leader, Hard working & a Doer
Gerald Mahinda (EABL) - Smart, nice guy but tough. Installed a Zero corruption policy at EABL.
#2 - Hire a (foreign) president!
Paul Kagame (Rwanda)
Lee Kuan Yew (Singapore) - The best!
Bill Gates (Microsoft & WEALTHY) - Genius
Warren Buffett (Billionaire) - Genial but tough as nails
Nelson Mandela - Instant recognition!
Barack Obama - A stepping stone to gain experience before becoming US Prez?
Yash Pal Ghai (Kenyan. Respected Don, ex-Chairman of the CKRC) - Finally a new constitution?
#3 - Bloggers
M - Coz he makes sense!
MMK (African Bullets & Honey) - Sweet writing…
Bankelele - As Finance Minister, his budgets will be fun to listen to!
Coldtusker - Dollars & Sense
# 4 - Politicians
Wangari Mathaai - She has been consistent in her views & has immense international prestige. She refuses to follow the “tribal” line.
Raila Odinga - I know many hate him BUT has he been wrong?
Uhuru Kenyatta - Already WEALTHY so he might remain “clean”. He is no longer moi’s puppet.
3. Mitzy
(15 Comments) | September 27th, 2006 at 5:07 am
Good post M.
It will be a long time before Kenyan politics is devoid of tribalism and sectionalism. There is this misconception that taking pride in one’s culture(tribe) is directly proportional to taking pride in one’s country (nationalism). That perhaps being more of a “tribalist”, makes one a better “nationalist”. The former however does not make inroads to the latter. This doesn’t mean that we should all cease being Kambas, Luhyas, Kikuyus, Luos, etc, and totally embrace “Kenyaness”, but no tribe should feel, be treated or act superior towards the others.
It has been said before that tribalism in Africa is a misnomer for an ethnocentric approach to national politics. Its about time majority rule for us actually means the majority not by tribe, but through collective self-less interests. Unlike what we can see now, one thing I can give the former government credit for was their attempt to unite Kenya.
Someone needs to bring the “Sexy Back” to beautiful KENYA very soon…
4. eclipse
(110 Comments) | September 27th, 2006 at 9:42 am
VituVingi…true dat!
Positive tribalism should actually make it to the oxymorons in “sheep in the big city” will be their biggest oxymoron.
its about time someone shut the mouths (and nether regions that they use so often to speak with) of the 98% of kenyan politicians..or is it politrickians!
5. donworry
(57 Comments) | September 27th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
This is a great post. I respect your position, M lakini I will have to ruffle feathers though. Get your collective heads out of the sandpit!
Let us go back to the classroom. If the temperature of something drops too low you may add heat until you bring it to the original temperature. That is a positive change in temperature. Negative tribalism has brought our country to a very low level in terms of inter community relations. To move in the opposite direction perhaps we need positive tribalism or affirmative action to warm the country to a more comfortable level.
There is talk of ethnic strife and everywhere today the talk is that the selfish arrogant kikuyu are up to their old tricks. They will keep power at all costs. The abuse of office, the anglo leasing scam the failure to prosecute, the artur and winnie soap opera the karua list of shame, etc etc, etc. Remember the unequal and unfair distribution of resources, oppotunities, allocations and recruitments. Just a few examples of what Kenyans perceive to be the dodgy behaviour of wakikuyu. The politicians whip up the lager mentality and you have outcomes like the great referendum debacle.
Tell me: in Nairobi if the chaps who hijack your mat and nick your valuables speak kikuyu and/or that dodgy sheng thing, and when we see pichas of mungiki marauders and hear how people were raided in their own home by thugs stealing and then raping, what is your bet that these will not be kikuyus? Who is the minister of insecurity? From here is it not just a stone’s throw away from saying that this tribe is morally bankrupt and full of thieves, liars rapists and killers? is this not what the “its our turn now” brigade are telling the rest of the country. They will believe it because our leaders do not seem bothered with perceptions
I am sorry to write this. When the people of Rwanda suddenly turned on their neighbours and slaughtered them like animals they had been pushed to the edge by their leaders. Tribalism is like a box of matches in the hands of a child. In the hands of leaders it will burn the country down. Something’s got to be done
6. I
(120 Comments) | September 27th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
Nothing positive can come from groups of people who think one is better than the other and that includes tribes, religion, countries and even political parties… .. None of us needs to be told that.. just look around.. and untill we all start looking at each other as HUMAN BEINGS.. who are essentially the same and want for the same things.. we are DOOMED!!
7. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | September 27th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Suddenly hiring a “foreigners” to run our government seems to be a better idea than the Corporate types!
After all, we might not like the idea but they have to do a good job so that we continously (but grudgingly) keep them on… Tribalism would not be a factor (negative or positive!)
M - I think that this so-called “positive tribalism” might be OK in a CULTURAL arena not the ECONOMIC arena! I think this might have been the writer/blogger’s intent.
Yeah, the grubby fingers are already in KenGen but the current “private” status may prevent further rip-offs… Lakini this is Kenya… We do the impossible!
8. Jean
(18 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 12:36 am
Hmm … i hadn’t thought of it that way…. Food for thought!
And Dooode!! Why don’t your posts show up on the aggregator any more?!!!
9. Sarah
(39 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 2:06 am
I don’t think anything like Positive tribalism exists, because we’ve always known that being tribalistic was wrong, so right and wrong cannot function hand in hand and we cannot add positive to a word just to make it acceptable. But instead of looking at tribalism as superiority to other tribes we can view it as http://www.dictionary.com does ;
“1. the customs and beliefs of tribal life and society.
2. strong loyalty to one’s own tribe, party, or group.
3. The organization, culture, or beliefs of a tribe.
4. A strong feeling of identity with and loyalty to one’s tribe or group
5. the state of living together in tribes and the beliefs of a tribal society”
10. Sarah
(4 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 7:56 am
The very thing that divides COULD be the very thing that unites us. The day Kenyans realise that just like any successful organisation needs, accountants, marketers, lawyers etc so to can the country benefit from the vast cultures.
HAVING SAID THAT
I find it ironic for those two words to be put together tribalism has a negative connotation to it so how can it be positive
11. Joe
(78 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 4:49 pm
I have to say that sometimes people mistake tribal pride for tribalism.. which is wrong .pretending that kenya is greator than out tribal heritage is in fact what causes all our problems. i think each individual should embrace their heritage and feel proud of who they are .after all Kenya wont last forever but our tribes will.- i know thats hard for some to accept but its a fact. the sooner we accept that the better .
sometimes people who are ashamed of their tribe feel offended by people who are comfortable being who they are . i have no apologies for that .i am proud of my roots AND It doesn’t mean that i am better than otieno or musuva but i will not put down my roots and my heritage just to make them feel good about themselves.
i will not pretend that i am just a kenyan like everybody else to make you feel good .
i will not join you in self pitty so that we can all be equal.
The truth is we are maasai,luo ,luhya meru etc before we are Kenyans -the reason we are still together as kenyans is because we need each other at this particular moment in time .tribal nationalism should not be a treat to anyone just as being Ugandan isnt a treat to being Kenyan .if Ugandans prosper and like other Ugandans we shouldn’t hate them we should learn from them if you get my drift
You are precisely the poster boy for the point I am trying to make. The way you have isolated yourself and your tribe at the expense of the common development of the country precisely illustrates the sort of intellectual and emotional maturity that keeps the Trans Mara / Gucha / Molo etc fires burning.
If you believe the wellbeing of your tribe is more important than that of your country I shake my head in disbelief. If you are unable to be Kikuyu/Luo/Kamba/Meru and Kenyan at the same time my sympathies are entirely with you!
12. Kagz
(7 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
I stopped blogging but came across your link on Tusker Baridi’s blog so here i go….
a. I support Joe’s comments 150%.
b. I’m afraid Sarah has contradicted herself big time. How can you give the definition of tribalism (which IMHO sound very neutral), then come back to write that “tribalism has a negative connotation”??? Are we reading the same definition???
c. Just liked Sarah, i have looked at VERY MANY definitions of Tribalism & there’s nothing negative about the term. Thats why i stated that Negative tribalism is what is killing Kenya.
d. M,there is no way you can divorce people 4m their tribes. Thats what the beauty of Kenya is all about…42 tribes representing different cultures. Thats why there’s a term called “Cultural Tourism”.
e. Whats is wrong in being proud of one’s culture????? Isn’t it the same thing as being proud of one’s country…or continent??? The problem comes when we think of another tribe/country/continent as inferior and act in a manner likely to suggest so.
13. Joe
(78 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
#when i said i will not join you in self pitty- i did not mean you -as a person - i meant people who feel their lark of development is because of others.(if anything some people would be as developed as the west if it wasnt for being fulled back to accomodate others)
#i am first and foremost a kyuk. For thousands of years well before kenya was here kyuks Existed so did massais and njemps with their own distinct economies and way of life.intermarriages as you said might i remind you is not a new thing tribes have intermarried for centuries yet nothing changed.I love my culture ,my people my tribe nothing can change that .so i ask you with all honesty what part of that statement says i don’t love Kenya or i hate kambas or kurias.how has my being a kikuyu prevented you from prospering ?The logic that i am proud to be a kyuk and i am therefore anti kenyan is a figment of your imagination.
It is only you who knows the level of your pride in your culture.
#Trans Mara / Gucha / Molo fires are burning because of escapism (people wanting to blame others for their weaknesses ),hate and ignorance not because i am proud to be a maasai/kale or kyuk.
14. Kagz
(7 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
I’m afraid i don’t understand what you don’t understand….
Dictionary.com/Sarah’s definition gives tribalism a neutral (if not positive) connotation.
When you say “so proud of their culture that they believe they are superior to everyone else, or they demean other cultures”…it looks like we are on the same page eexcept for the term “positive tribalism”. So is this a debate about semantics???
15. Sarah
(39 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
*Two Sarah’s (I like that name)..
To clarify, when I posted how tribalism was described at http://www.dictionary.com (see above) it was just to show that the dictionary and our descriptions was very different. I don’t think I was contradicting myself all I meant to say was, we all know, at least the majority that grew up in Kenya that whenever tribalism was mentioned it was never in a positive light. Great, that we want to introduce ‘Positive tribalism’ to our culture, the idea is noble but first we must get past the negative connotation attached to the word or find a new word to describe whatever it is we are talking about.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being proud of who you are and in taking pride in your culture the problem comes in when we infringe on other tribes rights etc.
I am a kamba by tribe, yes of the muiyiini sub tribe of the manyi clan, but I am also Kenyan, also African does that mean that I am more entitled to whatever it is before my Kikuyu, Luo, Ugandan, Scottish sister or brother, (resounding NO).. Whatever we call it, thinking we are superior in any way to other groups is wrong and is really not pride in our ‘group’…. or in who we are… ultimately its our downfall
16. joe
(78 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 8:09 pm
M said “There is nothing wrong with being proud of your culture. The problem is when people are so proud of their culture that they believe they are superior to everyone else, or they demean other cultures”.
I say maybe some cultures are superior to others.thats why some die and other live on.you don’t have to be a sociologist to know that .its upto cultures to adopt in order to survive ,complaining about dominant cultures wont help .
On being demeaning -maybe some cultures are diametrically opposed to each other.a good example kuyk culture detests leadership by uncircumsized men,even long before they had an inclination that luos exsisted.luos on the other hand cant circumsize. the two cultures are just diametrical.only the stronger culture will have its way on this issue.if both sides cant compromise only the strong will survive but both cant
17. I
(120 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 8:34 pm
I have to ask a question that was asked by M and has not been answered yet..
what is POSITIVE TRIBALISM?
18. mwende
(6 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
eh…some people need to think out of the box and move from their comfort zone…mnajijua..with all due respect… it is possible to be proud of your ethnic heritage and yet embrace kenyaness! when we play ball or rugby( and lose…hehehe but winning is welcome anytime) do we say the luos did again? eh? when guys attend culture nights best like roga roga and mugithi nights has your ethnicity ever stopped you from enjoying foods or appreciating music that is foreign to you? be proud of your ethnicity but realise it doesnt make you a better person regardless of the blonde stereotypes that fly around. tribalism has a negative connotation. end of storo.
19. ken
(1 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
I agree ! but to some it seems to some that tribalism =being a kyuk.that all 7million of us are in statehouse eating (sic)to some the country is more important than tribe (i say they are equal and if you want to force people to choose don’t be shocked at their choice)
you know in fact this whole issue of tribalism isn’t even about tribalism its just about kyuk bashing.You bash all you want !i just hope you can live with the consequences.
Oh, and the next time you want to create identities to support your point — remember to change your IP address while you’re at it
20. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | September 28th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
M - The problem is that individuals are selfish whether we see ourselves as individuals, religions (moto moto), race or tribes.
Let’s look at “countries”:
Kenyans look down on Tanzanians (economically)
Tanzanians look down on Kenyans (Kiswahili & tribalistic attitudes)
Kenyans look down on Ethiopia (Constant droughts/begging bowls)
Ethiopians on the Eriterians (damn breakaway state)
Of all the above issues, there are different cultures (not being “better” than the other) but diversity instead of the mind-numbing Indo-latino fusion hip-pop rock. Wow, I might have a new genre of music there!
In Kenya, tribalism is used to destroy, not teach or enjoy!
21. Kagz
(7 Comments) | September 29th, 2006 at 12:24 am
The purpose of this discussion seems to be deteriorating (coz alot of what has been said above is common sense) & i’m afraid Joe’s last comment indicates that whatever he is smoking has expired!!!!
Can you explain to this crowd what you mean by “maybe some cultures are superior to others”.
M,…when you say “I don’t happen to believe that is the definition on the ground today in Kenya”…then once again, we are in sync!!!
To M & I : By defination, tribalism has a positive connotation & hence the term “positive tribalism”. However, in Kenya, it has a negative connotation & thats why i said “negative tribalism is what is killing Kenya”. I could be wrong but thats my standpoint because no-one has shown me a defination that impies the term is negative.
I also agree with VVS that people are generally selfish. By the examples he gives above, i agree that superiority can be expressed in economic terms but how does tribal/language/cultural superiority come into play???
Another question, i’m i a kikuyu & then a kenyan OR a kenyan & then a kikuyu??? Why?
22. Sarah
(39 Comments) | September 29th, 2006 at 1:12 am
I just couldn’t end my day before I ask Joe, “DUDE, ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!!!!! eti there are tribes that are more superior than others??????”
Doesn’t the Bible clearly say that we are all equal?
I rest my case, this is not a discussion that can be held…
thank you & good night.
23. Sarah
(4 Comments) | September 29th, 2006 at 2:23 am
* Please note as my name sake pointed out there are two Sarah’s
@Joe how does the fact that we have a circumcised leader affect my ability to pay my mortgage or Childs school fees
@ Ken Triabalism is NOT about kikuyu bashing, there is more than one tribe in Kenya
after all the comments we still do not have a defination…….. Kenyans!!!!!! And we expect our politicians to give us direct answers
24. Chrenyan
(143 Comments) | September 29th, 2006 at 11:13 am
First: M, thanks for living up to your threat and posting. And thanks for the link to my blog!
All:
It seems we have here on our hands a prime example of our problem. How a man educated enough to read blogs can surmise that a man’s circumsized or uncircumsized-ness is a matter necessary of consideration before leaders can be chosen is just the sad state of affairs I was pointing out. This is not a smoking problem, friends. This is a problem of the intellect. Or lack thereof. I mean, just how downright silly is that?
And saying that all this is Kikuyu-bashing points out your tribe; indicates you have an inflated sense of that tribe’s importance; shows that your own valuation of self-worth is dangerously closely allied to your tribal origin; and indicates a siege mentality, which is dangerous, and has led to crimes against humanity in the past (Hitler). Exactly how old are you? Other tribes are just as culpable as your own…
That said, the other day a Kikuyu in the office told me he would vote for Raila. I am not pointing this out because I am a Raila supporter. I hardly know who to support (see Gado cartoon Daily Nation Friday 29th September). I (have what I like to believe is a healthy) fear Raila for reasons which I should probably blog about. ODM-Kenya is full of corrupt people; Ruto was a channel for Goldenberg funds through YK’92, stole land, the Kenyattas own land the size of Nyanza &c &c ad infinitum, nearly. Narc-Kenya I shall not dignify with a statement. I am merely pointing this out to try and say that at long, long last I see a ray, a single ray, a solitary ray of hope. Perhaps…
25. joe
(78 Comments) | September 29th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
You know what its good we are talking about this issue so that any misunderstandings cab be cleared . i also happened yesterday to exchange a few words with wainaiba Binyavanga on his blog.
http://bulletsandhoney.blogspot.com/
which i think is productive . though my position hasn’t changed i also did a post today on tribalism in kenya(from a kyuk and christian standpoint) i think it was because there was no dialogue that Rwanda happened and to be honest i am glad we are talking about it .
its interesting that someone brought up the issue of being under seige or feeling under siege and to be honest that is how i feel and am sure my fellow tribes people feel the same which i think we all agree is dangerous . talking about it can descalate this a potential explosive issue . have a refreshed and blessed day and don’t take it personal.thinking is a process of growth and confrontation is the pressure that refines diamonds
26. Shiroh
(130 Comments) | September 30th, 2006 at 11:23 am
How could you be so right? As Obama said we are too poor to think of things like tribalism. Does the blood of a Kikuyu taste different from that of a Luo. We suffer same, if you are sick you feel same pain.
But we have to work consistently against tribalism.
27. Shiroh
(130 Comments) | September 30th, 2006 at 11:27 am
The only reason i would never vote for Raila is not that he is luo, But he has no other agenda apart from being in power and so is he a tribalist!
It is therefore two faced to use that as a reason not to vote for Raila and then turn around and use it as a reason to vote for Kibaki! SAME DIFFERENCE!
28. bankelele
(39 Comments) | September 30th, 2006 at 11:52 am
Tribe is one bubbling (but hidden) issue am glad is being discussed.
The other is the raw fear/hate Kenyan Christians have for Muslims. Watching the protest in the streets yesterday many observes used the word evil/bad people/bombers. I was too tired to argue with them for the umpteenth time but wonder how they have shaped this opinion of followers of one of the world’s largest religions.
29. mwangi
(1 Comments) | September 30th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
You know what i have to agree with joe to some extent all this cry against tribalism is just kikuyu bashing .M is a well known ODM supporter why else . how come somalis,garbas ,pokots turkanas never complain that kenya is tribal aren’t they the most marginalized or is it because they don’t have people to speak for them , i think not !its ODM supporters who always cry wolf when they are the biggest tribalist raising this issue at election time as well as starting tribal clashes shame on you -you are the biggest tribalists in Kenya .
Feel free to let me know when you develop the –er— capacity to appreciate that
- You have an exaggerated (and very erroneous) opinion of yourself. And your tribe. Disabuse yourself of this notion. Speedily. Your tribe is not superior to any other. And you for damn sure are not superior to anyone
- People are indeed complaining about Kenya’s tribalism. I for one am complaining. And will continue to do so. It is you and your ilk that continue to be the millstone around the neck of our national development
- Only a mind completely divorced from reality can construe speaking out against tribalism as support for ODM. Nowadays, basic education is free. Avail yourself of it.
30. spicebear
(12 Comments) | September 30th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
woi njesus.
reading through the comments i had the urge at times to bash my head on my desk cos really, this doesn’t make sense.
we know tribalism is a bad thing, right? then people go ahead and spin it saying “no, it can be a good thing, it can be positive!” then it becomes my tribe is better than yours and thus i have the right to think i am the sh*t and the rest of you suck. cos some cultures are more superior to others. right. then when asked what in the hell is positive tribalism and how it will help us people say “nooo! kikuyus are being bashed. ha, see? we don’t have to explain why we are tribalist anymore so there!” i swear, if someone starts with i’m rubber and you’re glue nonsense i’m fowarding my doctor’s bill to y’all cos i will end up with a concussion.
if there is positive tribalism can there also be positive racism? cos i am just dying to see how this works out to the benefit of everyone. isn’t thinking that we all (read those twits in parliament) deserve a piece of the national cake what got kenya in this mess in the first place? by the way, not only kikuyus and luos or whoever else you want to bring up are tribalist. a tribalist is a tribalist whether they are bantu, nilotic or cushitic. there is being proud of your culture then there is selfishness and stupidity. it is selfish and stupid to think that tribalism is a good thing because it will benefit us all by … oh wait, that part was left out. so could someone please tell me what good will come out of this, maybe some of us are not aware of the caucus/seminar/commitee that came up with the guidelines and recommendations for this.
oh, before anyone accuses me of bashing, i come from two tribes that form GEMA and that is something i am proud of. just to get that out of the way.
31. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | October 1st, 2006 at 12:31 am
M - here’s some “positive tribalism” for you… couched as “cultural” but really a divisive, tribal gathering that does no good!
Kenyans are obsessed with “tribe”… They will support a thief as long as “he is our thief”….
Chinua Achebe’s “A Man of the People” captured this well…
http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=1143958979
32. Kagz
(7 Comments) | October 1st, 2006 at 5:03 pm
SPICEBAR : Did you read the comments above before commenting??? By defination, tribalism is NOT a bad thing. The term got a new defination in Kenya hence positive tribalism vs negative tribalism.
VITU VINGI SANA : Not all tribal gatherings are divisive. I have said again & again, you can’t divorce people from thier tribes.
SHIROH : When you say “The only reason i would never vote for Raila is not that he is luo, But he has no other agenda apart from being in power and so is he a tribalist!” …………i honestly dont know whether to laugh or to cry.
But unlike others, i’m NOT glad we are discussing this issue. Its unfortunate that in this day & age we are still stuck discussing basics. This tribal issues should have ended with our parents but here we are, all educated & what not, still discussing the basics.
Thinker’s Room, shouldn’t we be discussing solutions a.k.a the way forward???
33. spicebear
(12 Comments) | October 1st, 2006 at 6:45 pm
kagz: i did read all the comments. as a kenyan, my mind does not refer to the oxford dictionary definition when i think of tribalism. when i think about tribalism, i think about how self serving it is - tribal clashes, being told to lie low like envelopes, violence, the presence or absence of foreskin and so on and so forth. because i have never seen a good side to it, i cannot fathom why putting the word positive infront of it is going to change how i or other people percieve it. in my opinion, its just an excuse for people to be tribalist and then say it’s a good thing cos it is too easy to spin. what is the attachement to the word tribalism anyway? if we are talking about pride in one’s roots and culture must it be defined by something that most people feel is ugly? is there no other phrase we can use apart from “positive tribalism?”
34. TeeJ
(28 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 1:50 am
M, I sincerely hope you will ignore that mwangi dude’s comment. Aki, no words!
And how did casino, bob, and dietpills get thru?!
Yes, I still read ur blog.
35. acolyte
(179 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 2:47 am
Like I commented on someone’s blog. I have no issue with tribal pride, what I have a problem with ethnocentricism that does nothing for national unity and the country as a whole. That takes us nowhere and just polarizes us.
36. Kenyan Analyst
(18 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 11:30 am
Great post. I tried to muse abt the subject in question at http://kenyananalyst.wordpress.com/2006/09/29/i-refuse-to-believe-these/ and http://kenyananalyst.wordpress.com/2006/09/18/who-will-build-the-bridges/ Blessings!
37. Gish
(22 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Mwangi and Joe are you serious ? I agree as the AA would say step 1 is to acknowledge there is a problem. I am not sure whether to be sad, sympathetic or throw up my hands. we do have a problem, we vote as per tribe not as per the person’s potential and the policies. But who would blame us there is nothing to vote for now. Iam looking at 2007 elections and i am puzzled, its same script same cast, how much worse can it get…. Most kenyans are tribal hence the question of where i come from after i say that my name is Gish. I think we prefer to be first mount Kenya Mafia then Kenyans how else could we explain this. The way forward would start with our children seeing as education has not done much to enlighten some of us. The children ideally would be brought up with the proper attitudes and ideologies, same applies to religion from like minded parents and educators ideally . I wonder if Joe and Mwangi are taking the animal farm a tad bit too literally. Wake up, its 2006 AD, i simply dont care who you are and where you are from as long as you achieve the goals set the rest is gas … Is there anything positive about tribalism really?
38. Gish
(22 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 1:55 pm
again, the issue of what comes first is like the egg and the chicken which came first. Now i do agree that you can acquire being a kenyan but cannot do the same for tribe that you are born into. Now even better if the tribe comes first what of those who say father is kikuyu, mother luo and born in Good ol’ USA then what comes first,. Forget that kenya is a parternal society eeeehhh so? the more i think of it the more am convinced that if we could all be kenyans regardless of where and who gave birth to you, it would be a good day.
Sorry M for the mini-blog.
39. joe
(78 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 5:08 pm
i am sorry people but lets face it .ODM kenya work is at hand in all this it is no secret that M and Mzalendo cohorts while pretending to be neutral are infact ODM YOUTH WINGERS ,spreading anti kikuyism because they have no policies to offer kenyans.when mudavadi is made a tribal chief its good but dare karume try the same. when kibaki appoints kikuyus to the cabinet it is treason against kenya because odinga will not appoint any luos when he wins.
That era of thinking ended with the referendum. The fact the Narc kenya was able to pick up seats in rift valley and northern kenya should just tell you, that people are not buying this rubbish of tribalism the only pops up 12 months to elections.
The notion that my appointment to a government position because i am a kikuyu somehow makes you poor is a Silly and at most stupid view of the way government works . what matters is not who holds what position but what government policies are being implemented .
lets not hide behind tribalism and sensationalism,creating easy solutions for the problems we face as a country.lets talk about policy . if you dont like the way political appointments are made tell us what policies you will bring into place to change the current situation .explain to us how any appointment when the individuals appointed are hardworking,educated and law abiding kenyans is preventing you and your community from prospering .dont come here hiding behind loving kenya when you have no agenda of making kenya better.yes we have all heard your complaints against kikuyus /luhya kales etc now tell us ur solutions.
is appointing a man from the lake going to cure kenya and make us a supper power. come on tell us we are waiting
40. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Well, if M is a ODM youthwinger… and after reading M’s blog for a year+/-, I say… I would be proud to be a Mnian…
Joe - I do not know if you are just stirring debate for the heck of it… but the the current government is using “tribe” to push its agenda. We will be very sorry if this leads to violence in 2007 esp as elections approach.
Again, I would rather have the best elected (or hire Lee Kuan Yew as prez!) to parliament then have the same pigs…
For all Githongo has done, it remains to be seen if Kenyans will vote for him, should he stand for a position. I think he could win in Nairobi but it seems he is “reviled” by the kikuyus for turning on kibaki (even for the RIGHT reasons). Will non-kikuyus support him?
41. joe
(78 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 6:27 pm
honestly lets just agree to disagree -which i think is healthy- if your idea is that this government is so evil and bent on making only kikuyus or few individuals rich, i cant help you. for me this is rather too simplistic for me to accept.if you think the agenda of narc kenya is to destroy ‘other kenyans’ then please vote them out.So that you can build the kenya you want.AFTERALL arent we the aduwi!
Dont even get me started on that spy called githongo.Anyone who doesn’t have the balls to come home and face those he accuses doesn’t deserve to be mentioned.if you want to elect neo colonial pupets who hide behind the skirts of wazungus , like him thats your choice .
42. joe
(78 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Eeeh thinker i jua thinkers room is ur blog lakini not all my comments are adressed to you !eeeeh its not always about you. Read through the comments u will see government ,githongo and the rest mentioned by others.
I don’t see why you should complain when people give as good as they get. And when it comes to hard questions I am still awaiting my answer. Following your logic on The Kikuyu existing before Kenya, since the Kikuyu as well were here before the Christians, are you a Christian first and then a Kikuyu or the other way round? Stop your shadow boxing and give me an answer
if you seriously want to have an open discussion about kenya i am open but if when asked hard questions you want to refer to hallucinogens and little minds then i guess you can bait someone else of even better still block out my comments
Stop looking for a quick exit after backing yourself into a corner. Sob stories about your hurt feelings will get you nowhere. Put up or shut up!
43. toiyoi
(106 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 8:36 pm
Do you guys see this and put your heads in the sand or i am the one who is outrageous in my thinking!. The solution is “simple”:
(i) Get a guy such as Gaddafi- a dictator with a sense of where he wants the country to go OR
In any case, by the time you can determine whether a dictator is benevolent or not — it is usually too late
(ii) Divide the country up into “tribal” countries. End of tribal feelings.
See full blog if this kind of thot interests you.
44. msaniixl
(79 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 9:57 pm
Wow at that cat Joe….wow.
First class tool…I mean runing away with it.
45. joe
(78 Comments) | October 2nd, 2006 at 10:00 pm
M by now you should now that i dont just shake it …i bring it !
i dont shadow box and i don’t fear neo liberal types and their fake ideas that are sugarcoated to look and sound good but lark any substance.
when it comes to your question i could go into a deep a theological analysis bases on the words of king david in psalm that says” you knew me while i was in my mothers womb- and ordainedall the days of my life ” but that would be unfair since religion is an issue of faith and cant be argued.
but the simple answer is i am christian then a kikuyu.let me remind you that my being a kyuk and a christian was by devine order and can not be changed by human influence. hence their superiority in order-but i dont want to go into that arguement .i think my example that if africa was to unite into one country i would stop being a kenyan but i would still be a christian and a kyuk is simple logic.
You did say this earlier on
The Kikuyu were correspondingly in Kenya before the Christians. So why are you a Christian first before Kikuyu after telling us you are a Kikuyu first before Kenyan? You’re tying yourself in knots.
NOW can you answer my question-
if i was appointed to a government position and i am a kyuk,and i have all the accademic qualifications required,i am a hard worker and i conduct my duties within the laws of kenya how is that making other kenyas who are not from my tribe poor or even enriching people from my tribe . could you please answer that question? feel free to give exmples.Since you seem well informed name names ,dont talk in abstract.tell us who these kikuyus are and what laws they are breaking so that we can arrest them. we cant have people thinking they are superior to other kenyans can we?
46. acolyte
(179 Comments) | October 3rd, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Hmmmmmm I have been to busy dealing with the raiders at my border to comment but since they have been beaten off I can jump back in the fray.
First things first, there is no positive -ism at all! Any ism involves the marginalization of another party at the expense of another. I wonder if the commentor would be pleased if they were the victim of positive racism or sexism?There is a big difference between ethnic pride and tribalism and it is about time people realized that!
It seems the more someone here says the less and less sense they are making.
I have read M’s blog for a long long time and there is no propaganda propogated here for any party. M is not neutral but biased towards good governance. M lampoons all the politicians be they kikuyu or not.
The notion that my appointment to a government position because i am a kikuyu somehow makes you poor is a Silly and at most stupid view of the way government works . what matters is not who holds what position but what government policies are being implemented .
That is what is meant to happen in ideal but what has been happening is the total opposite.Have you read Shiro’s post about the rapidy ethnic homogenisation of the KRA at the expense of skilled Kenyans from other tribes?
Joe, you are beginning to sound like those white people who say that racism doesn’t exist.
I would say more but I don’t want to waste time trying to make logic out of the statements being made here.
ps: I think a new scape goat has come up…ODM Youth wingers!
47. Abby
(22 Comments) | October 3rd, 2006 at 4:35 pm
Hmm … lots of food for thought.
Personally, I think something REALLY RADICAL like adopting a national language from birth, e.g. Swa - is the only way to eradicate tribalism completely. I.e. when kids are born, they don’t learn their ‘mother-tongue’, they learn only the national and official languages.
Why do I say this? I believe language is a DIRECT reflection of the special characteristics of each culture; its conventions, history, tradition, race, religion, and yeah - its political stand. Your language affects the way you view and perceive the world. Whether you like it or not, you will identify with people who speak the same language, because it gives you a sense of belonging and place, and personhood.
Eliminate tribes, and you eliminate tribalism…
After all, apart from vague over-generalizations like ‘pride’ and ‘ownership’, exactly what benefits do tribal languages have?
48. joe
(78 Comments) | October 3rd, 2006 at 4:38 pm
aCOLYTE@ I think i know the difference btw bias towards good governance and party politics .how many times on this blog has M or any of you talked of the ills of odm.the land grabbing ,panga wielding envelope killers and aduwi calling . how many.
i don’t refuse that favoritism exists in some form aco you have lived here in the states for long .you know what clout Houston republican types have in this bush administration from contracts in Iraq to lobbying in Washington .its normal in politics for people who finance your rise to benefit more.the issue here is are they benefiting to the detriment of the nation. has it occurred to you that the individuals in kra are long serving employees who were overlooked in the moi era for promotions.
i think the issue here is not are they kikuyus but are they qualified.if they are qualified aco how are they making you poorer. what tribe the come from is imaterial. kyuks will always be more in government,more in business and more in jail simply because of the numbers in relation to population. should we empty the jails of kuyks because there are too many in jail.
to use ur american example its like african americans complaining there are too many whites in government -yet we all know whites are a majority in population .
acolyte i think if you read all through my post you will see that i am no tribalist in the kenyan sense. i love being a kuyk, my bro in law is a luhya , my best buddies are luos.i love being a kenyan ,why is it so hard for people to accept that. tribalism is the leaste of kenyas problems(it might be a problem) now 12 months to elections its a clarion call that will heal all our ills? no lets be more objective on this issue lets seperate the politics from the issue.lets talk facts name names ,give examples show that this people got jobs because they are kikuyus or whatever
How many times have we had that crass defence from racist people? Who say things like “I have nothing against blacks but … ” or “… I’m not a racist. In fact I have some black friends …”
Your bigotry is fooling no one my son! No one!
49. Chrenyan
(143 Comments) | October 3rd, 2006 at 4:40 pm
Good grief! Now I’m beginning to think that I was perhaps too harsh in my statements above and should retract them, not because they’re not true, but because now we are mudslinging. For heaven’s sake, now M is an under(not much)cover ODM youth winger. Having known M for the last 11 years, this was news to me. And all this despite not a single word like ODM-K or NARC-K in his post, which, if I remember rightly seemed to be about whether such a thing as positive tribalism exists. It seems to have been written ages ago.
While M has in the past (and rightly so) had a right good go at the Government perhaps we all need to distinguish between opposing the Government and being an ODM supporter. There is a line between these two, and it is not a thin one either. Dissatisfaction with the way NARC has handled issues does not immediately translate into being an ODM supporter. Many Kenyans - across the board - are unhappy with Anglo Leasing, unhappy with corruption in KRA, unhappy with MP’s perks (Standard today), unhappy with ministerial largesse, unhappy with the potholes and traffic jams on the way home due to incompleted bypasses… the list is long. But this does not make them ODM supporters. What ODM does is simply pick these gripes and magnify them and then present themselves as an option. They do this so well that anyone who is unhappy with the Government is seen an ODM supporter. And yet (the matter of ODM being an option) is largely a LIE.
So I hope Joe and co. will stop feeling cornered and discriminated against. This is not a me-against-the-world situation. I have already stated, perhaps too harshly, that this kind of mentality is just plain dangerous. Anything and anyone, when cornered, will fight. But it must be asked, who has cornered you in the context of this forum?
What can is the origin of the statement “i am sorry people but lets face it .ODM kenya work is at hand in all this”?
Why should anyone feel intimidated by a simple post about whether or not positive tribalism exists?
Let us all beware of the prisons that are our minds.
50. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | October 3rd, 2006 at 6:05 pm
Chrenyan puts it so well… I am not pro-ODM or anti-NARC as much as
“unhappy with Anglo Leasing, unhappy with corruption in KRA, unhappy with MP’s perks (Standard today), unhappy with ministerial largesse, unhappy with the potholes and traffic jams on the way home due to incompleted bypasses”
I do not care for any of the political parties not the tribe of the prez. There should be NO cronyism, corruption, etc…
If only Kenyans would get it into their heads that the best person for the job may not be of his family, clan, tribe, race or religion… then we can get somewhere…
I have to grudgingly admit that TZ has it there… They have had a Roman Catholic prez & a Muslim prez while tribe apparently matters little in National politics!
51. toiyoi
(106 Comments) | October 3rd, 2006 at 6:41 pm
M, you must have made the comment on my post before reading fully what i was saying (which among other things, Ben Dictators are bad idea).
Correction: Palestine is not a country, in fact if it were, the animosity would exist, BUT it would be country-country animosity, which is a normal thing in this world and precisely why the UN exists. The UN is not meant to deal with Samburu-Kikuyu animosity, for example.
Also, your roadmap to peace is amazing.
- Convert to country
- Get UN to sort out the animosity
I am deeply skeptical with regards to the chances of success of such
52. Sarah
(39 Comments) | October 3rd, 2006 at 8:30 pm
Will someone please answer my hypothetical question (ok, maybe not so hypothetical), we have company X and for the last 10+ years, most of the people were from tribe y, currently tribe w has taken over governance or leadership of company x and now wants to promote all tribe w people qualified or not because they feel that w’s were neglected in the past and now they are ENTITLED to better jobs, no body cares if tribe y was doing a good job, if you are not from tribe w you are out of a job SORRY.
Is this tribal bashing if we say this is wrong and people should be employed etc depending on qualifications and actually knowing and performing the job satisfactorily etc.
Just because you are from my tribe should you get better privileges than anybody else because we were suppresed in the past?
Tribe is the problem, we all agree on that (well most of us do) so if this is the case then every tribe needs a turn to balance things out right? But where will this lead us?
Bottom line if any one group feels they are entitled to better things or being first in whatever it is then we have lots of negativity and resentment brewing and it doesn’t matter if this group is larger than the other groups!
Joe, “to use ur american example its like african americans complaining there are too many whites in government -yet we all know whites are a majority in population”
Interesting statement Joe, are you forgeting the slavery years and how this ended up being the case?
53. donworry
(57 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 12:37 am
By all accounts M has held his own and demonstrated clearly what is wrong with the tribal card if we are to engage in any meaningful debate about the problems facing Kenya and where we go from here. Ukabila must die and of that we agree 100%. I hold to that truth like no other.
My “positive tribalism” take was as a result of a simple misunderstanding where I imagined(not having read the source) that the author of that particular contradictory term was advocating a kind of affirmative action and a rebalancing of past wrongs by previous regimes.
Sitting here by the ringside watching M do a battle of wits with an unarmed man has been……..educational.
54. anonymous wanjiku
(1 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 7:02 am
Yes we are all Kenyans.
But, belonging to certain ethnic groups can be a disadvantage.
Bearing in mind some geographic boundaries are also tribal,
A woman in the North Eastern province is more likely to be circumcised, less likely to have access to a hospital, less likely to receive antenatal care and less likely to have her baby immunised when compared to a woman from Central province.
So to say we are all Kenyans and should focus less on agitating for the rights of our people is to ignore that there are massive disparities, based not only on the usual socioeconomic status but also on tribal background.
The first step to making things more equitable is to recognise that some tribes are disadvantaged, no matter what mind numbingly stupid statements are used to express this.
So is an MP from the N.E province justified in agitating for the rights of his people….HECK YEAH!
So here’s one vote for positive tribalism( in the right context of course)
Source: Kenya Demographic and Health Survey 2003 preliminary report
Ciku
55. Chrenyan
(143 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 10:31 am
THIS KIND OF UNDERSTANDING IS WHAT WE ALL NEED IN LARGE DOSES:
The Kenya National Commission on Human Rights (KNCHR) chairman, Mr Maina Kiai, has cautioned people against being used by politicians, who invoke tribal sentiments to push private agenda.
Kiai yesterday said wananchi have recoiled into their ethnic shells, giving politicians room to hide behind their communities when they are faced with allegations of corruption.
Kiai said the Maasai stood behind Kajiado North MP, Prof George Saitoti, when he moved to court to defend himself over the Goldenberg scandal while the Meru rallied behind former Cabinet ministers Mr Daudi Mwiraria and Mr Kiraitu Murungi when the Kenya Anti-Corruption Commission started investigating them over the Anglo Leasing scandal.
Kiai said this in a speech read on his behalf by Mr Godana Doyo, a commissioner with the KNCHR, during a graduation for paralegal officers at Tom Mboya Labour College in Kisumu. He asked paralegal officers to sensitise people to overcome the culture of “it is our turn to eat”.
56. Chrenyan
(143 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 11:05 am
@VituVingiSana
I hear you on Tanzania. I feel Tanzania, socially, are a century ahead of Kenya. It shows even in their person-person interaction. It is probably possible to be robbed politely at gunpoint in Tanzania. Ujamaa set them back economically, but it had GREAT advantages. It is one of the great tragedies of East African history that we did not use our capitalism to better ourselves economically, as much as they used their socialism to better themselves socially - in all likelihood we shall probably NEVER be as socially mature as they are, as the comments on this post have shown.
I once visited Zambia and it was SO refreshing to be in a country where politics can actually exist sans-tribe issues. I cannot even begin to explain just how good that is. There, the main issue is whether the man is doing a good job or not.
By the way:
Our neighbours are snapping at our heels economically (higher growth rates, in 2003 investors put $82 million in Kenya compared to $283 million in Uganda and $248 million in Tanzania). Uganda, by the way, was embroiled in a Civil War in the same time as Ujamaa had the ascendancy in Tanzania. And yet to look at these figures, one would think it was we who had embraced socialism, we who had a Civil War (God forbid).
This probably deserves a post.
57. Shiroh
(1 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 11:52 am
What it is about Kenyans makes us Kenyans full stop.
58. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 11:56 am
“unhappy with Anglo Leasing, unhappy with corruption in KRA, unhappy with MP’s perks (Standard today), unhappy with ministerial largesse, unhappy with the potholes and traffic jams on the way home due to incompleted bypasses”
Me too.
But i am also happy with
“Increasing opportunities at NSE, a cleaner town, tarmacked Nrb city, working parastatals, a better civil service, shamed corrupt leaders, job opportunities”
Thats enough reason
59. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
M said:
If no other person is given to me to vote for apart from Raila & Co, i will vote for Kibaki. What do you want me to do? He is the better devil.
There is no logical progression between looking for power and being a tribalist. That is too much of a stetch.
This sounds to me suspiciously like tribe is a factor in your voting patterns. I hope that is not the case!
60. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
I am sorry to post all these comments.
There is one thing people do not understand
“Kenyans are tribalists; the only difference is whichever tribe is in power appears more tribal”
I will tell you for sure today in a Luo law firm i know in town, all their staff is Luo. Another Kikuyu one i know has staff who are kikuyu. And so is Kisii, Meru, Kamba more likely to employ their own.
why?
Trust and Confidentiality.
I don’t know if I should laugh or cry. My dear you cannot possibly be serious!!!!
Because many persons are afraid to lose their trade secrets and trust their own. As i said in this post, tribalism has its roots and the thing is we must introduce a mechanism to deal with it. http://sylkwan.blogspot.com/2006/02/we-are-going-long-way.html#comments.
I experienced tribalism at the hands of Kalenjins and Luos. Yet the same people will turn around and say Kikuyus are tribalists. The thing is that it is defeatist to say other people are tribalists and yet do the same thing when your turn arrives. Or is it tribalism when it is done by a Kikuyu and Not You?
Having identified that tribalism is a bad thing, why don’t we have a commission to deal with the issue. Just like KACC.
People need to change their mindsets. Themselves. If indiviudal people change then the society as a whole will change
61. Dusty
(19 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
M… interesting post. To me, there’s nothing positive about tribalism because the thinking that underlies tribalism is “my tribe is superior to yours”.
62. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
To answer all your questions M;
I do not agree entirely. These are things that me, as a Kenyan, am entitled to. I should not give thanks to the benevolence of the Kibaki government for giving me things that are mine as a right!
While i agree it is your right. The former Govt denied us all these rights; and there is nothing we did about it!!!! Is it ok to say you enlist in the Kenyans who want to see something bad in everything. Most African countries are in some war or another and we are not; Thanks To Moi for at least did something to avoid it.
It will be a cold day in hell before I become complacent enough to accept mediocrity in the guise of leadership purely because “at least Kibaki is better than Moi”.
There is no logical progression between looking for power and being a tribalist. That is too much of a stetch.
This sounds to me suspiciously like tribe is a factor in your voting patterns. I hope that is not the case!
Tribalism or not; i think Kibaki is the better evil than Raila & Co. If i have tribalism aspersions then in my judgement at the moment are silent. I am looking at what i have gained versus what i can lose as a person. I have gained nothing from a Kikuyu presidency apart from what i put my mind and efforts to doing. Like if i invest well, i get returns. That really matters to me!!!!!
If i was a tribalist; i would support Uhuru for ODM presidency but i am and will not. Enough said
People need to change their mindsets. Themselves. If individual people change then the society as a whole will change
I fully agree with you. But just as the case maybe changing people’s mindset is a story for another day. Let us try a commission and if it doesn’t work we move on to something different. Because tribalism and corruption is different though both hurts the economy.
What i am saying is when i am a Kikuyu as i am; I am discriminated against by others. Asians, and all other tribalists in Kenya. I hear some people
AAND you have left two things hanging
1) How does seeking political power make you a tribalist?
2) Please o please o please explain using diagrams your argument of “trust and confidentiality”, and if it was in fact a joke.
“Hii Kikuyu hii?” and i am dumbfounded. Same applies to others. It is a national tragedy!!!!!
63. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
AAND you have not answered one of my question — how does seeking political power make you a tribalist?
The reason why Raila is a tribalist
1. Whoever he surrounds himself
2. Choosing tribal leaders e.g. Kalonzo is meant to bring the Kamba vote, Ruto the Kalenjin vote et al
3. Because he is tribal
Elaborate how:
1) He is tribal
2) How his “tribalism” is absent in the others (Kibaki, Kombo, etc), such that using the same benchmarks Raila is a tribalist and the others are not
Need for power
1. Using whatever dubious means it is you are using to get to power
2. Use and Dump: that is parties
3. It is obvious.
In summary I fail to see how you have differentiated Raila from Kibaki. The same standards should apply to everyone.
I still await answers to my questions:
1) How does seeking political power make you a tribalist?
2) Please o please o please explain using diagrams your argument of “trust and confidentiality”, and if it was in fact a joke.
It will be a cold day in hell before I become complacent enough to accept mediocrity in the guise of leadership purely because “at least Kibaki is better than Moi”.
That is not what i mean. I appreciate the efforts. That is it.
64. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
One more last thing.
Just because Kibaki has not performed par excellence doesn’t make Raila better than him. As in the better evil issue.
It would be a different ball game, if it was Anyang Nyongo who is seeking leadership. Because we know Anyang Nyongo is a brilliant man. For me Raila is too unstable to run this country!!!! And the fact he would want to be the alter-for Kibaki is in itself unbelievable
65. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
I wish i could draw.
This is it young man
The reasons why people tend to associate more with people of their tribe is because they think they can trust persons of their own tribe. Something like tribonophobia (fear of persons who are not your tribesmen)
Illustrations;
Due to upringing of persons in a certain community (you know M you are a Nairobian thats why you don’t understand thesee things) are brought up being told “Ooh you see Kikuyus will marry you and then go with your children when the marriage is over) therefore many guys i know even after they grow up will continue with that mentality.
You may be told and incalculated in your head that members of a certain people will steal from you if you employ them. M you cannot ignore that many people grow up in their tribal areas. For example in my village, there is no even a Meru living there. So everyone in my village associates with persons of the village and even when they go to provincial schools, they rarely integrate with persons of outside their tribe.
You may wish people were brighter than that but they are not!!!
I hope that is over now.
1
a) M is in Nairobi
b) Since M is in Nairobi, he must have been brought up in Nairobi
2
a) M is in Nairobi
b) People in Nairobi have no comprehension of the goings on elsewhere
c) Therefore M has no comprehension of the goings on elsewhere
I sure do miss logic classes….
But I digress. Since you don’t know me at all, where I was born, where I grew up and at what point I came to Nairobi, or if indeed I was ever not in Nairobi, you are in no position to judge what I can and cannot understand.
I agree with those sentiments. As a matter of fact if you search you will find the same expressed several times in this blog.
Your original comments sounded to me like “people hire others from their tribe because they trust them”. I hotly dispute this notion. What you have just said is “people hire others from their tribe because they think they can trust them.” Different kettle of fish.
Q1: 100 Marks. Do you think going out your way to identify yourself as a Kikuyu / Kamba / Luo / Kalenjin contributes to this state of affairs?
In summary I fail to see how you have differentiated Raila from Kibaki. The same standards should apply to everyone
I do not see why you should differentiate the two for they are worlds apart. I am just saying they are NOT substitutes!
66. Kagz
(7 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
Ati tribonophobia = fear of persons who are not your tribesmen !!!!!!!!!!!!!………….and Raila is a tribalist because he is tribal !!!!!!!
MY CONCLUSION: On the 8th day, God made Kenyans.
67. Chrenyan
(143 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Now by the way, I am not saying the present Government has done nothing. We have seen growth that is worth writing home about for the first time in a long, long time. We do have a cleaner capital city. The capital markets have been an increasingly attractive place to invest. I think that there has been some amount of job creation, even though it may be stretching it a bit to say that the Government has met its target of 500 000 jobs every year since 2003, making a grand total of 1.5 million newly-working Kenyans and counting. Tourism is up beyond all imagination compared to five years ago. There’s a list here, too.
BUT. And it is a very big BUT. There is lots that has gone wrong. Anglo-Leasing didn’t have to happen, but it did. MP’s certainly didn’t need to raise their salaries. This was one of the first things they did. What we need to do is to compare ourselves with what we CAN BE, not what we USED TO BE or HOW MUCH WORSE WE COULD BE. And this is why so many Kenyans are disgruntled. We’d be behaving ignorant and foolishly not to.
How many of us can remember the euphoria and goodwill with which this Government swept to power in 2003? The vehemence with which our President spat out the term “ufisadi” (corruption) at his inauguration speech sent delicious shivers down our spines, and shivers of an altogether different nature down the spines of the corrupt. Or so we believed. We allowed hope to rise in our breasts. Bribe-seeking policemen flagging down matatus would be descended upon by none other than the commuters, informed in no uncertain terms that this was the “New Kenya” and that bribe-taking was not to be sanctioned from now henceforth, and would finally be firmly dispossessed of any bribes they had erstwhile taken while on duty that day.
This is what we can be. And it was all over in 6 months.
By 2004, rumours of mega-corruption stretching into the current regime were making their rounds. Now, stories like what I’ve mentioned above seem like a fairy-tale.
Comparing ourselves now with ourselves under Moi should be BENEATH us. I hope this is not something President Kibaki does. Surely we should have far, far loftier ideals than beating our own performance under Mr. Moi’s regime. That should not even be a goal by our standards.
Comparing ourselves with how much worse we could be is even worse. This is a road we have travelled before. When Moi used to present Kenya as an island of peace in a region of instability, we nodded happily and said “Ndio baba”. Meanwhile we were incarcerated without trial. The Nyayo torture chambers flourished. We suffered through Goldenberg-like crimes against humanity. Our (parents’) salaries quietly underwent division by a factor of at least 5 due to massive printing of currency to fund election campaigns.
We still nodded.
Now we are being asked to agree that NARC has done well, when there is so much, so much, friends, that has gone wrong.
And some of us are still nodding.
At this rate, we are going to run ourselves out of unfavourable examples to compare ourselves with. Before we sound the bottom of even this particular barrel, why can’t we set ourselves some reasonable goals and get cracking on meeting them?
68. joe
(78 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
You can only bang on a brick wall for so long ….but am glad out of this whole issue people like Chrenyan realise the dangers of backing people into a corner and continuing to insinuate that its all of us against them.
Grivances have to have better ways of being articulated rather than criminalizing and demonizing ONE community for all your problems. Shameless promotion oF Opposition politics should be left of of these issue (just as it should have been left out of the constitution issue).A hardline stand will only be met with an even harder hardline stand.(you can read what you want into it)
To M ,railamaniacs and all other ODM youthwingers. i have a kyuk saying for you .”mweke uria mwekaga mwarakara” translated Stop making noise and kicking up dust . if you want to do something do it !talk is cheap anybody can do it .do something
And as for your not so subtle slights … It is not fair for me to take on someone half equipped in a battle of wits
69. joe
(78 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Kihii
70. c-s
(1 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
have to budge in here. The way i see it is being of a certain tribe should not make you feel superior than the other after being a luo or kyuk or whatever does not add anything value to your life. But being of little minds akina Joe’s of this country are hallucinating by “one” of their own being in state house or whenever, but still si we can see all kyuks are in statehouse governing Kenya for all we know Joe could be the one incharge of loo warming commitee
71. egm
(68 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Chrenyan has given some very good words concerning how we gauge ourselves. If all we aim for is to be better than those around us or those that came before us, then surely, mediocrity will be the order of the day. If, however, we have a benchmark we can aspire up to and then actually work towards it, we would be miles ahead. As I was typing this, it occurred to me that these same benchmarks would be hard to specify. As in all things, what would be the frame of reference? I posit that we can look at other places, see what works there, and work towards that. How different is this from what I started off stating? Well, instead of comparing ourselves to those that are worse off than us, we are doing so with those that are better off than us, and finding ways to work towards achieving their status. And once we get to their level, this shouldn’t mean we have arrived. We should be constant in our self-assesement to see if that is the best we can be, or if there is an even higher goal to strive for.
Ideals are called that because these are things that, realistically speaking, cannot be attained. That does not mean we shouldn’t make every effort to try and achieve them. For when you strive towards an ideal, then you will end up at a place much better than just mere mediocrity for sure. Why aim for the moon when the sun beckons?
72. KM
(62 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Bringing me out of the woodwork…I read the comments mpaka it got to the point where I have lost the gist of this discussion….sigh.
I will say this….I am Kenyan first, Meru/Maasai/Kikuyu next…Tell me, where would I gravitate towards if it came to splitting where my ancestors hailed from?
This is sad. This discussion is sad. It is sad to see that in this day and age, people still habor retrogressive idealogies, mediocre to say the least, where things are run by ‘where I come from’ rather than what I can deliver, what I can do, my integrity.
And I fail to see how one can honestly identify themselves by tribe, even engage in chest thumping/ thumpchesting that “my tribe is better than yours” What the FUCK? Are we seriously even contemplating these things or are we kidding. How are we going to think globally if we cant even think locally? How do you even begin to embrace beyond kenyan borders if by the time you set out to do that you are not fully and 100% Kenyan?
Being proud of one’s culture and tribalism are two very very differnt things!!! I am proud of traditions passed on to me by my grandparents, I am proud of my roots, to not be alienated, to uphold values of generosity and a regard for family…..that, has nothing, nothing to do with specific tribe. Sure yes, some practices are exclusive to some tribes, but evryone has a tribe, and that tribe has a culture, and we need to depart from the tribe, take the culture we want to keep, and make the move towards being Kenyan.
So yes, you can divorce people form their tribe and leave them their culture. Celebrating heritage is celebrating culture, the values, the norms…celebrating the diversity of where we come from. And since everyone comes from their different culture, that is what the celebration is about. Once again…we are not celebrating the bloody tribe, we are celebrating the practices of the tribe.
How in hell does celebrating that culture then, say, I celebrating the fact that to marry me a man will need to take 1 or 70 cows to my parents….how in hell is that a basis for whether I get voted into parliament or not? How?
I fail at eloquence, but what I mean to say is, if you feel the need to keep identifying yourslef by your tribe, if you find yourself judging people by their tribe instead of their character and integrity, according favors to some and leaving out others by virtue of their tribe, something is wrong with you. Something gross is wrong with you. Something retarded is up with you. If you are even making decisons, revolutional decisions such as who to vote, what direction you are going to propel the country towards, based on someone’s tribe….YOU NEED TO SEE SOMEONE ABOUT THAT!!!
Shi, I can understand the fact that you feel bitterly about say, discrimination at work. And I feel it with you because those are exactly the same mindsets that we need to change. To the point where, even your own child will not get preference over a more reliable and qualified nondescript, but you must realise that the cahneg has to begin somewhere, with you, chosing to see yourself as Kenyan first, without losing the gist of who you are.
And the minute you say Kibaki is the better devil to Raila, you need to substantiate that with ONLY what he ahs or has not done, and at no point should tribe come into play. At NO time. The minute ‘Luo’ or ‘Kikuyu’ comes into the jsutification, then you are arguing from a flawed perspective. Its another thing altogether that none of them deserves to be there by virtue of the disappointments they have all handed us, but is that not what your vote next year is meant to communicate?
I just came to say Hallo M.
Hallo M.
73. M
(9 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
Young Joseph, better known to his friends as Joe, is an Oracle of some note.
If you read his various comments here, and then go over to his blog, you will find a post from him where he holds forth his wisdom on the vice of tribalsim. The first line is priceless.
In case he deletes it I will share it here with you:
This is the wisdom Joe starts off with
Tears of laughter are streaming from my eyes. Tears of laughter
74. joe
(78 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 5:41 pm
OH PLEASE !I wouldnt delete my blog even for you M. i tried resoning and having a frank conversation but you would have none of it .you are the one who started the insults ,anyone reading the comments can see that .ALL THIS TALK…do something if you are going to do it
With reference to your fascinating post, the contrast between that post and your comments here can be appreciated best in Matthew 7:3
Anyway, since you are lowering the quality of discussion here this is the last response you will get out of me.
Adios!
75. acolyte
(179 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
Damn this is better than the movies! I knew it was only a matter of time before Joe cracked!
But on a serious note, is anyone reading what M or the other person is saying before replying? I think we have gotten to a point where people are talking at cross purposes or shouting each other down.
We have played into our politicians’ tribal politics at the expense of national progress and it is very very sad. I think KM has said it very well.
76. Irena
(15 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
To be on the fence and watch as drama unfolds is wonderful. Okay I’m done following the circus. Lets be serious, why are we attacking Joe vehemently like that. First of, the term that Joe uses on superiority I believe he meant from anthropological point of view
To explain it from a pre-colonial era and the trickle down effect thereafter. Now he didn’t mean to say that Kikuyu blood is sweeter than Luos or any of that as some contributors are insinuating.
If you look at pre-colonial Kenya, it is true some tribes were more structured politically, economically, socially and culturally superior than others and that determined their survival pre and post colonial era.
Some tribes were more accessible to education, business acumen, et al than others post colonial era thus rendering them economically and politically powerful.
Some tribes too due to the sufferings during colonial era, they formed a strong bond of looking after each other and thus up to date, there is that camaraderie that still exists and thus has concentrated the power to themselves and naturally they came from the same tribe. Now, is it wrong for them to shun the others out? Yes/no depending on how you look at it. Do the member of that particular tribe benefits from the small group of powerful people, HELL NO! So generalizing one tribe for the actions of the others is just wrong and thus the person casting that stone on a tribe based on the actions of a few is no better !
I’m dying to hear you elaborate this one. When is it Ok to shun the others?
To me the debate is not about the tribes but rather the economic /power imbalance is what creates the so called tribalism because I know for a fact a kikuyu and a Luo in Mathare slums will take a bullet for each other any day. And a Luo living in Nyeri is seen as a neighbor by his kyuk neighbor than is seen as Luo. Well I think we need to hold all the leaders accountable for they are the ones in quest to gain favor from their people who create the “superiority /inferiority complex” of a tribe.
We also need to embrace the uniqueness of each tribe and understand that each prides itself for what they are and no matter how many times we say we are all the same, no we are not because culturally we all have different experiences. We all need to understand these differences and to understand that if for all these years we have co-existed , then why are we creating a non – existence tribal war when it is all comes down to what I said before Economic Imbalance. That is what we should be addressing, the causes and solutions. Otherwise even within the tribe, there is internal fighting between the haves and the have nots!
Disclaimer: I think we need to critically analyze each comment without going an all out attack, embrace the good points as well otherwise the one sided attack is in bad taste. Acknowledging a good point from your opponent speaks very loud about a leader!
77. Irena
(15 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
Also if I had a business and I wanted it to prosper, I would perhaps hire someone who is close to me , a friend I trust , who speaks the same language etc. There is tendency to assume trust based on those I guess superficial reasons. Read “MyLife” Bill Clinton and who he put in office when he came in power …….. He didn’t go all out to recruit his staff from unknown ,so maybe that is what Joe was talkin about. Eisshhh!!
78. acolyte
(179 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
Irena you started out well but unfortunately you stumbled,
If you look at pre-colonial Kenya, it is true some tribes were more structured politically, economically, socially and culturally superior than others and that determined their survival pre and post colonial era.
Many tribes ended up having more because they came from areas that had more natural resources and they took advantage of it and as time went by they carried on this exploratory and entrepreneurial mindset. Let me tell you if you took Kikuyus from the fertile highlands and took them to the impoverished Northern Kenya pre-independance they would be just as poor as the people who live there now and would even have the same mindset. No culture is superior, culture develops in response to the circumstances it finds itself in.
But I do agree with you that we need to acknowledge our diversity and embrace it, instead of letting it divide us.
79. Jean
(18 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 6:17 pm
Irena & Joe …. If you kick a tiger in the ass you’d better have a plan for dealing with its teeth.
80. joe
(78 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
A simple illustration.
This whole thing about tribalism is fast degenerating into what Hon .Michuki termed a danger to state security. What was a frank discussion is now clearly promoting tribal animosity .I just hope that when M gets picked up he has a good lawyer.
The point I was trying to get across put simply is this .Kenya is like a marriage. When a couple comes together they come together as a man and a woman. bring the different qualities that make them as individuals but working together to make the marriage work. The marriage can’t work if both parties disregard that they are different and have different roles. It is this differences and the harnessing of the differences that makes the marriage work. The same thing applies to Kenya. Some people say we should do away with tribe and just be Kenyans .other like myself say first be proud of yourself and your community and bring that same love and contribute to Kenya. A famous pastor once said you have to be a complete man before you can go looking to settle down with a wife.
The same applies to Kenya. Be proud of where you come from .Then bring that to the table and contribute to nation building .diversity is not a disadvantage. It is a gift that should be harnessed .be proud of your community and your people. It is only those with narrow minds who equate pride in tribal heritage to mean a dislike for all others.
I will always be proud of my heritage .I hope you can be proud of yours
81. Irena
(15 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 7:24 pm
Acolyte & Whoever: I do not need accolades for what is my opinion.
82. Irena
(15 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
“Let me tell you if you took Kikuyus from the fertile highlands and took them to the impoverished Northern Kenya pre-independance they would be just as poor as the people who live there now and would even have the same mindset. No culture is superior, culture develops in response to the circumstances it finds itself in”
Acolyte: Maybe some are more innovative+ have better survival skills than others thus rendering themselves superior N.Eastern or no N.Eastern analogy.
Sometimes it is not all a matter of geographical location otherwise maybe some areas would harness the natural resources they have to better themselves but choose not to …sijui… I could give examples but as I have been warned by Jean , let me not rattle the pythons LOL…
83. spicebear
(12 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 7:32 pm
joe, no one is saying that you should turn your back on your roots. almost everyone here agrees that pride in your culture is a good thing. but when you start calling people kihii (by the way, this just makes you look tribalist) and accusing everyone of being an ODM youth winger or having an agenda or kikuyu bashing it makes it that much harder to understand where you are coming from or what you are trying to say.
84. Sarah
(39 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
Allow me to digress, Irena where is your blog.. apparently you have elected to delete it, I was very interested in reading it. And this question is just a question, no hidden agenda.
Thank you
85. acolyte
(179 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
Okay Irena,
Let me run with your agruement
“Acolyte: Maybe some are more innovative+ have better survival skills than others thus rendering themselves superior N.Eastern or no N.Eastern analogy.”
Since you have rejected my arguement that culture often develops as a response to environment we must assume that it is inbred and genetic. This means that those who live in the highlands are of a far superior genetic stock than their poor neighbours up North.
So what about those who live in the highlands and are poor? Hmmmmmm they must have been of lesser genetic stock or even worse they must have mated with those other genetically inferior tribes?
I could go on building on this but I don’t want to give some muppet out there a platform for ethnic cleansing…………..
86. Sarah
(39 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 8:29 pm
I agree with Aco, Man is man….. and we all have the potential to suceed in whatever we want to become or fail miserably regardless of where you are from. This has nothing to do with tribe, whatever view we take. At birth opportunities might vary not because of your tribe but because of the environment and circumstances. For example, not all children from rich parents suceed in life even with everything handed to them and not all children from poor families end up poor… There are two basic arguments but please note that none mention tribe or certain geographical regions.
“Nature versus nurture is a shorthand expression for debates about the relative importance of an individual’s innate qualities (”nature”) versus personal experiences (”nurture”) in determining or causing individual differences in physical and behavioral traits. Nativism is the view that certain skills or abilities are ‘native’ or hard wired into the brain at birth. This is in contrast to the ‘blank slate’ or tabula rasa view which states that the brain has little innate ability and almost everything is learned through interaction with the environment”.
Source : Wikipedia
87. joe
(78 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
come on aco i think we all know that irena is talking about genetic predisposition key word “predisposition” she hasnt claimed genetic exclusivity to acumen.i do however agree with the point that Predisposition(ability) -the capacity we are born with/learn things can be blocked by Negative environmental influences.
it is exactlythe lark of those environmental factors (education/land/capital/proximity/etc)that made may say some tribes may be superior than others (even though M has taken it to himself to say that i categorically said i was superior)
88. acolyte
(179 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
So Joe, with these words;
come on aco i think we all know that irena is talking about genetic predisposition key word “predisposition” she hasnt claimed genetic exclusivity to acumen.
You are saying that some tribes have some gene or other that makes them more likely to suceed if placed in the right environment than others? Is this gene more prevalant in those who live in the fertile highlands than those who live in the parched reaches of Nothern Kenya?
Also this argument goes both ways;
the capacity we are born with/learn things can be blocked by Negative environmental influences.
It can be argued that positive environmental influences enhances the natural abilities we have.
89. joe
(78 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 9:44 pm
NO ITS (disposition that is)not more prevalant in those who live in the fertile highlands than those who live in the parched reaches of Nothern Kenya. and you are right that it works both ways
may i put it to you that all kenyans are genetical predisposed to sucess - some are more sucessful because the environment they live in,while others have been hindered by their environment there fore not making them equal i.e meaning one is superior i think thats all that is being claimed
90. Irena
(15 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
Thinker : You can interprete my points/opinions/not so intelectual way of putting my point across they way you want but I’m sure you get my point… Perhaps not all of us can eloquently put a point across but your “darwinism theory” is not what I was referring to Thinker!!! to clarify my “survival” point but hey again you can look at it the way you want.
Also my business acumen referral does not mean the way you want to potray it but again you and your followers can say it better than I can, to get the point home .
And now I have followers? LOL!
Mko wapi! Your leader is tired of walking!
Your style of attacking those who oppose certain points or those stand on their opinion or painfully trying to communicate in Queen’s English is rather tasteless. I’m surprised and again I’m not on the way you counter-attack arguments and other people’s opinion as if yours is better off than others. I repeated what you were saying but may I say you are not the first or the last to talk about tribal issues and any other issues affecting Kenya in your blog or any other forum , so quit your sheepish comment “I’m chewing gum” crap!
Why can’t you dismiss other people’s opinion in gentlemanly manner like Acolyte does most times( acolyte do not hate me , I still have much wendo for you..lol) without egoistically trying to put down other people’s comment whether you agree with them or not. Again, I do not need your accolades or you to agree with me on my points on this discussion but stop behaving as if we should all agree with you !If you do not understand the point one was putting across simply ask one to substantiate. That is what a healthy discussion is all about .
Joe or anyone for that matter has a right to their opinion however crude or however unimaginable !!! If you do not want us to disagree with you or have different opinions , then switch off your comment section!
@Sarah: Pole, been extremely busy to blog anymore !
91. Irena
(15 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
Acolyte: I didn’t mention any tribe or any geographical area and generic superiority in my argument so do not put words in my mouth but again I wonder what you were referring to?
92. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
Wow… to think I missed all this drama Its a Tribal Thang starring M, Joe, Shiroh & a stellar blogging cast!
Alternate titles:
Baby, its not you its just Tribal
Kenyans - The Ignorami
Also walk-on roles for kibz (as winnie the pooh), michuki (as QRU watchie), raira, wako (as eeyore), etc…
After reading Shiroh’s arguments to SUPPORT tribalism… why do we get our knickers in a knot when Jungus hire Jungus OR Wahindis hire Wahindis?
Isn’t that racist? Isn’t it wrong? But when Shiroh does the same its OK?
In any case, the government is NOT a private business & it has NO right to hire from “special” tribes only… Hire the best…
As far as Joe… my oh my, kihii??? Are we getting testy ala michuki? For all your arguments, the kihii comment reveals your true nature. All the posturing, arguments, logic & sense washed away by one little word!
93. joe
(78 Comments) | October 4th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
Let IT be washed away. Incidental i have noted your failure to inform others that it was M who began the insults. (by the way calling an uncircumsized man a kihii is not an insult it is simply stating the facts as they are). how this makes me a tribalist i will await your comments.
As for ODM YOUTH WINGERS -go back through the history of M’s blog from way back during the referendum you will encounter post after post castigating the government and promoting odm. even M himself is not refusing he is an ODM-YW.I just think he wasn’t expecting the gloves to finaly come off .
it shouldn’t surprise you that tribal clashes are breaking out in kenya and these blogers are blogging about tribalism 12 month to elections .it is because they dont want you to ask the hard questions like what their policies are .they want you caught up in this rubbish of tribalism that does not even exsist. but is tailored to discredit and create anymosity towards the government.the only misculculation they have made is that this is not about oranges and bananas this is about kenyans all kenyans.
i have through this post ask M to name names ,to stop talking in general terms and give us details of those who are making other communities poor etc yet he has not .why ?is he just singing a mantra from odm leadership or talking about facts.untill he can answer these questions.i suggest you go through this whole post and read evey comment carefully as irena posted and make an informed choice on what it is we are saying and what it is M is saying
94. Irena
(15 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 12:03 am
:”If you feel threatened by a challenge to back up your claims … what can I say?” Threatened by you , please my dear do not flatter yourself, I only do not have time to populate your blog with my thoughts. I did so in mine when I used to blog. You or anyone else cannot threaten me . I’m not one of those you intimidate . I think it is vice versa that the fact that someone does not agree with you , you feel threatened hence why you attack with insult first typical of …. I will not join the queue, you views or your self importance is not that important to me.
“I’m sorry but I’m not going apologize to you or to anyone for asking you to substantiate your claims! You reserve your right to disagree with me. Also reserve mine to disagree with you”
I didn’t ask for apologies , why should you even think it? I would care less whether you agree with me or not and it is your blog you can do whatever you wish since you have your comment opne for all then I reserve to say whatever… so I think on that we agree.
“linking an insightful assessment of the external business landscape with the keen awareness of how money can be made” -
I ‘m sure you are good with googling , and I can assure you I know all about that BEYOND GOOGLE DEFINITION! a nd ccan offer a comprehensive insight on that .. please spare me the intimidation and your all the almighty Thinker approach. I for one have no time for your recycled materials that you callyour ideas . With that sina hiyo saa kwa sababu I have my BUSINESS to take care of… ciao amigo!
95. Anon
(1 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 12:26 am
Dude, as one of your BIGGEST fan I have to come out of the woodwork and unleash my hat for a true master.
You know just how to hustle and tease people into coming out of their cocoons. They think they are arguing with you but they end up revealing themselves and discussing it amongst themselves! Just like the diaspora drama you anzad.
94 comments and counting? Dude … Nuff respect (M)achiavelli (sp?). Nuff respect!!!
96. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 12:42 am
Whoa, on the lighter side following M’s lead…
Joe, how do you know if M is a kihii or not? Peekaboo, I see you???
M- you better be careful when you use the gym showers coz there are some dude/ss (wannabe dudette/s) who are checking your,um, hanger… In any case, you shouldn’t be hanging your f***skin out to dry like that coz u might be causing (name withheld) to go all krazy over you!
Me thinks M will cause (name withheld) to blow a fuse… soon!
Peace out!
95 & counting…
97. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 8:21 am
Obviously this discussion has taken the wrong turn.
I will state, in blogland there are no permanent enemies
98. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 8:25 am
After reading Shiroh’s arguments to SUPPORT tribalism… why do we get our knickers in a knot when Jungus hire Jungus OR Wahindis hire Wahindis?
Isn’t that racist? Isn’t it wrong? But when Shiroh does the same its OK?
@Vitu Vingi Sana
I do not support tribalism (Wrong) but unlike you i am not A SOPHISTICATED person who refuses to accept that tribalism does exist. And to me, the reasons why tribalism exist are simple, people (as corrected) think they can trust their tribesmen and they associate with them for a long time.
I hope i don’t have to answer anyone else.
99. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 9:20 am
This is getting interesting.
Here they are fighting about tribes
On Kumekucha there are fighting about being kenyan/Tanzanian
http://kumekucha.blogspot.com/2006/09/bush-discusses-instability-in-kenya.html
100. Chrenyan
(143 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 9:48 am
I ask to be allowed to register some slight puzzlement at reading Joe on M’s blog saying “this rubbish of tribalism that does not even exist” and then reading Joe on Joe’s blog saying tribalism is on the rise here in Kenya.
That aside, Joe, let me say this in the most friendly, most reconciling way I know how.
M is not an ODM-K youth winger. This is why I posted a comment on the veritable gulf that exists between being unhappy with the Government and being happy with ODM-K. There is an ocean in between. ODM-K would have you think there isn’t, but there is. Don’t be tricked by ODM. Just try and see M as a Kenyan unhappy with the phrase ‘positive tribalism’. I believe that is all you can divine from his post and subsequent comments. It is long, long way from there to “Kikuyu-bashing”.
What would you say if you knew that M was, in fact, circumsized? Perhaps a large platform of your arguments against M would simply dissolve, wouldn’t they? Especially a certain one-word, five-letter argument that has been dissected at length…
This last point leads on to the question that I was sorry to have to ask in my first ka-comment: “Why on earth should it even matter?”
101. anon 2
(5 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
@ M- I totally agree with Anon- people had to reveal themselves. others to the extent of insulting by callin names like Kihii…..
that was distasteful truly annoying but i guess they are allowed to have their opinion.
Tribalism whether positive or negative is Tribalism and its a vice that no human should condone or even entertain because we are all equal before our creator and man.
we should take pride in our cultures but assuming that a tribe is superior to another for whatever reasons anyone can come up with is just plain stupidity -i wouldn’t even call it ignorance thats beyond ignorance.
Its sad how people reason on this day and age……..
102. Mentalacrobatics
(13 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Marc, first of all I would like to welcome you into “The Secret Society of ODM-K Orange Pro Raila Anti Government Youth Wingers”. Us KBW admin members were thrown there a while a go. Its good to see the powers that be have decided to throw you in as well. (I told ya’ll that jamaa is mad like a nonsense - now you see).
Secondly, good post here the debate generated is very interesting. I remember this issue being raised on KOL years ago, sadly it seems we are a people are sitting driving around the same cul de sac.
This Luhya Unity stuff has began to irritate me sana. My upcoming post on that will touch on that.
Enjoy! and remember ourSSOODMKPRAGYW meeting is on at the hour of darkness as usual.
103. Mama Mia
(22 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
‘Tribelessness’ = power …. remember the principles behind the Tower of Babel.
Many kenyans, esp products of mixed marriages, don’t speak their parents’ tribal languages and are none the worse for it.
@Irena - with Sarah on ‘how come you don’t blog any more’?
104. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
After reading Shiroh’s arguments to SUPPORT tribalism… why do we get our knickers in a knot when Jungus hire Jungus OR Wahindis hire Wahindis?
Isn’t that racist? Isn’t it wrong? But when Shiroh does the same its OK?
@Vitu Vingi Sana
I do not support tribalism (Wrong) but unlike you i am not A SOPHISTICATED person who refuses to accept that tribalism does exist. And to me, the reasons why tribalism exist are simple, people (as corrected) think they can trust their tribesmen and they associate with them for a long time.
Sophisticated? Wow, thanx for the compliment!
Answer me these:
- Your business. 2 similarly experienced, qualified jamaas show up at your door. One kyuk, one jango. Who do you hire?
- Your business. 2 jamaas show up at your door. The jango is better qualified then the kyuk. Who do you hire?
- You are an HR manager at private firm. 2 similarly experienced, qualified jamaas show up at your door. One kyuk, one jango. Who do you hire?
- You are an HR manager at private firm. 2 jamaas show up at your door. The jango is better qualified then the kyuk. Who do you hire?
- You are an employment officer in a government department. 2 similarly experienced, qualified jamaas show up at your door. One kyuk, one kale. Who do you hire?
- You are an employment officer in a government department. 2 jamaas show up at your door. The kale is better qualified then the kyuk. Who do you hire?
105. Proctologist In Training
(6 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Tribalism in Diaspora - A different perspective
By A Kenyan in Diaspora
As an individual who has lived abroad for more than a decade, I have noted that new “arrivals” who back at home defined themselves as being of a certain tribe do not choose to re-define themselves as members of a new and larger group because at a certain point, tribalism loses its importance and other unifying factors such as social class gain significance. It would appear that neither the term, the concept of tribalism nor loyalty to a tribe goes away just because you are living in an alien land. Just like in Kenya, in Diaspora tribal group identification plays an important role in public life and it is not uncommon for terms and attitudes to be expressed by one tribe about another tribe, even those who are not strangers and have seen each other many times in the local pub, local church, local supermarket or work together. Due to the strength of tribal stereotypes they maintain social distance and will continue to do so unless these barriers that separate them can be broken down and some common ground for interaction achieved. Those in small towns have used religion as a mechanism of social interaction that has served to reduce ethnic variations and it has proved a useful tool in giving some degree of homogeneity to a diversified population. It is interesting to note that women are often the ones making the most effort find common ground.
In my humble opinion, who we are is partly a product of our culture, how others perceive us and indeed how we perceive ourselves so anyone could be forgiven for believing that the problems of inter-tribal conflict are simply intractable and that the idea of peace and harmony between different communities is just a naïve pipe dream but the bottom line is it is the immutable fact of individuality which above all else determines who are really are on an individual basis and I for one believe Kenya would be much better off if it re-discovered this philosophy.
Ps – Have you read this?
Politicians yet to realise impact of internet, warns Google chief
Source: FT.com
Politicians have yet to wake up to the impact of the -internet, which will expose them to online “truth predictor” tests and affect the outcome of general elections, the head of Google said on Tuesday. In an interview with the Financial Times, Eric Schmidt, the chairman and chief executive of the most popular internet search engine, said his speech to the Conservative conference was part of a global mission to educate political leaders. “Many of the politicians don’t actually understand the phenomenon of the internet very well. It’s partly because of their age . . . often what they learn about the internet they learn from their staffs and their children,” Mr Schmidt said. The current “TV generation” of political leaders had learnt to “switch on” and perform in front of the cameras and most were now aware of the internet’s importance, he said. But he argued they had yet to grasp the technology’s implications, not least in terms of the power it hands to voters, posing the question: “If television created this generation of politicians, what will the internet do to the next generation of politicians?”
106. acolyte
(179 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 8:57 pm
Irena; I know you are long gone but you should know that when you discount one theory you render the other one substative.
That aside. This has been a most fascinating study into the mindset of Kenyans but what I wonder is that you would think that most of the people here are deeply rooted in their culture but I know that is not always the case.
I wouldnt be surprised if there are some people who can barely speak their mother tongue, rarely go upcountry and know very few of their traditions. I know this is not the case with everyone here but it is sad to see that many people will carry on the gospel of tribalism when they have little attachment to their tribe.
I do know this is mainly the case in the towns and the cities where people intermingle but more often than not this is where people who are educated go to seek out their fortunes and influence the world.
If this is what we the educated and exposed have to offer ( positive tribalism, ethnocentricism) I shudder to think of what could be happening in the rest of Kenya.
107. joe
(78 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 9:15 pm
108. toiyoi
(106 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
M, you are doing a great thing here, see all the issues and passions! This is good, it at least gets people to talk their minds, which i hope they should without any inhibitions, for those who seek anonymity:
Now back to my argument(which seems not to be popular with most people, and i understand)
(i) On the Benevolent dictator ( details from here ):
One may say what is needed is a dictator who has a good vision for the country( i.e. a benevolent individual), who can for instance eradicate the different cultures and institute a single language (say swahili), BUT, is this good? And, how long will you wait for such a “messiah” to found? One can never know how an individual turns out to be.
On (ii), i argue that, give Shiroh country C, where she is comfortable with Prez Kibaki, and Otieno country L where he is happy with Prez Raila. This solves the tribal porblem (if C and L have other internal problems, let them deal with them as “one people” whatever that means). If Country C has a problem with country L, at least the world, through UN, may notice and the probalem may be addressed using the existing inter-country structures. But as kenya stands now, if Shiroh lords it over Otieno and he has no help internally, who else cares? What am saying is that it if we do not desire a break into countrylets (eg for economic reasons etc), then it should be basic to recognize the differences (your post) and find means and ways to co-exist in a 21stish century. But since this is not working, lets split up the country. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Don’t you think that keeping them away from each other by locking each in their own rooms is merely treating the symptoms rather than the disease?
109. joe
(4 Comments) | October 5th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
M wacha so you allow mentalacrobatics to call me mad…… but i cant have my 2cents. lol its ok it alright! you protect your friend
If you can’t contribute to the topic under discussion, take your wars elsewhere!
110. toiyoi
(106 Comments) | October 6th, 2006 at 12:32 am
M: This is not a good example, as you can very wel tell that Shiroh does not believe Otieno is his brother. As i argued here (and elsewhere), and as we all know, Shiroh, Wamalwa, Kipbemboi, Ole Suguta Marmar and Otieno were forced to share the same house by the Brits (to manage them). If, as it seems, Shiroh feels Otieno is overbearing or Kipkemboi is lazy and she is not comfortable with any of the others (which is “natural”) and vice versa, an no amount of diplomacy can bring them together, for God’s sake, it is obvious, undo the injustice and separate them.
If, as will probably happen, they realise life is becoming difficult when divided, they may start talking to each other and unite and have binding contracts that everyone respects. Now tell me, what is wrong with that?
111. VituVingiSana
(175 Comments) | October 6th, 2006 at 1:25 am
Joe - I ended up at the site (before M’s editing got to work)…
Kwanza - I agree with M, it was a “personal” attack… there were some unneeded harsh words!
Second - The pic in question was so lame, I have livelier pop-ups even when I am being good!
Third - I can’t figure WHY I even bother to respond to you… The “kihii” comment…
BUT I (& M) wanna know… did you peek under M’s drawers/undies?
Did you like what you saw?
Hee… hee…
I have left the building… goodnite everybody…
112. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 6th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
ur business. 2 similarly experienced, qualified jamaas show up at your door. One kyuk, one jango. Who do you hire?
I have never had the intention of running my business like a kiosk, i will obviously have a recruiting manager, or outsource if need be.
- Your business. 2 jamaas show up at your door. The jango is better qualified then the kyuk. Who do you hire?
obviously apart from being better qualified, personality counts. I guess the era of resume in Kenya should begin. I admire one qualities in Jang’o, they are very professional and know how to dress the part. They make good managers too. So why do you think i should hire the Kikuyu
- You are an HR manager at private firm. 2 similarly experienced, qualified jamaas show up at your door. One kyuk, one jango. Who do you hire?
See answer two
- You are an HR manager at private firm. 2 jamaas show up at your door. The jango is better qualified then the kyuk. Who do you hire?
See answer two
- You are an employment officer in a government department. 2 similarly experienced, qualified jamaas show up at your door. One kyuk, one kale. Who do you hire?
See answer two
- You are an employment officer in a government department. 2 jamaas show up at your door. The kale is better qualified then the kyuk. Who do you hire?
See answer two.
I don’t think you understand me at all. I am NOT a tribalist. I was tackling the issue, Now YOU ARE ATTACKING MY PERSON. That doesnt particularly go well with me
113. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 6th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
M: This is not a good example, as you can very wel tell that Shiroh does not believe Otieno is his brother.
This is now what i call brain retrogression. Now where did i say I dont believe Otieno is my brother. C’MON give me some slack.
114. Shiroh
(35 Comments) | October 6th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
M, the most unfortunate thing that has happened to this conversation is people attacking one another.
That’s a difference. Tribalism does exist and it is not limited to one tribe. It behoves therefore that anyone who thinks that because I am tribe X I am tribal is not only displaying unforgivable tendencies.
If you are only annoyed because the tribalism is directed towards you but you would be perfectly be happy if it was a guy from tribe Y who was discriminated against is what is classified under Total B/S. You are tribalist yourself.
If I look like I support Kibaki, it is my own political inclinations, which should be respected. That doesn’t mean I would never support Anyang Nyongo who for many years has been the people’s president of choice. As some blogger said today He needs to step out of Raila’s shadow. Since Naikuni & Co. have not yet declared their interests in politics, I would not imagine that they are up for presidency. We are working with what we have. And between what we have, I am left with no choice than to appreciate the Devil I know.
115. joe
(4 Comments) | October 6th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
OK i thought long and hard about what i said and let me say I apologies to M for my insult . it was wrong of me to say that.A real man kikuyu and kenyan is not afraid to admit when he is wrong . so to M- I AM SORRY.
To Everyone else who read what i said to M . I APOLOGIZE TO YOU .you shouldnt have to be subjected to reading such foolishness .
116. toiyoi
(106 Comments) | October 6th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Shiroh:
I am jsut using you as an argument point, not that you said such words:
What i am saying is this and you read it here in details:
Kenya is composed of 42+ so called tribes, (put together into one country by the Brits etc, who used the knowledge that a house divided against itself cannot stand, and therefore can be managed at will and surely, these 40+ years Africa has proven this over and over again!). If Majority of tribe AG believe that they cannot trust the leadership of a member of tribe LU and vice versa, or that people from tribe KA are lazy, etc, and kenya could do much better if only people from LU, KA, SA etc thought and acted more like people from AG, then, kenya would be better off if we had separeate entities, say Kenya-AG, kenya-LU, kenya-KA, where each group fell well taken care of.
My point?:
A house divided against itself cannot stand
Language is a major barrier to unity( aka Tower of Babel)
Now, I ask you, why are you stopping the entity separation at tribe level? Even within tribes there are issues between the various members, either based on clans or regions. Look at the Luhya, which if my GHC still serves me, is composed of several sub-tribes. Or the Mijikenda. Or the warring clans in Northern Kenya.
Why stop at tribe level?
117. Mutumia
(56 Comments) | October 7th, 2006 at 1:27 am
Oh sweet Jaysus! Took me long enough to get through 114 comments!!!
Summing up what we have so far, it looks like we have a couple of sub-arguments being discussed under 1 proxy argument and it keeps getting re-framed with each subsequent commenter.
1) “Should you be proud of your tribe?” has been conclusively answered. Short answer, “Yes”. Long answer “hell yes!”.
2)Is there a “better” tribe (by dint of foreskin having or lack thereof, business acumen having or lacking, fish eating, senator producing, swift running, flower planting in round abouts, lower teeth plucking blah blah effing blah?) . Short answer, No. Long answer, “Hellous nous” (TKS, 2005).
There are also a couple of sub-arguments e.g. so “you guys” think you could have done a better job which is closely related to the “please see Kikuyu resume attached” which are sub-plots to question 2 above (see short answer to the question).
Lastly, it is soooo offensive to me as a Kikuyu that this is being debated in my name. I know I’ve been away from home for a while, but at the very least, I should have gotten a ka-e-mail ama a ka-memo on what my j.d. and responsibilities as a “tribe member” entailed.
BCC people- blind courtesy copy!!!
118. kimx
(7 Comments) | October 7th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
The operative word here is “tribalism”. Let us, as Kenyans would have, take the word to mean and include all the negative connotations associated with it. For that matter, there can never be anything like “positive tribalism”, since “positive-negatives” always yield “negatives”. Which is to say that, as far as this definition goes, tribalism is undesirable; a trait of poor leadership; a 21st century anathema; anachronistic, and a despicable phrase .
But tribalism can be represented much better by going basic and seeing it for what it is: HUBRIS
Here we are, anybody who does not agree with “M” , has either ‘taken drugs’ or is ‘hallucinating’. Well, I agree–this is your webspace. Yes, in the realm of your ‘time-space’, you own here; and when I comment here–I am at your mercy! Trouble is: How do you differentiate between “tribal bigotry” and “brain-superiority complex” as so vividly displayed by “M”?
“M” believes that nobody could ever argue better than him. HUBRIS that is finally expresed as tribalism. Here in your blog, the expression of your ‘brainy-superiority’ is a perfect representation of what ‘tribalism’ is. “I being superior than others, brain or tribe-wise.”
Know what boy!? If you open up, better believe you don’t necessarily have the final word. Out there are people who can always argue better than you could ever imagined.
Accept that, it is not only the reality, it is healthy. Drop you “hubris” and then we can understand you hate tribalism.
And when it comes to: ” I didn’t write that”, better accept that people read more “between the lines” than “along the lines”.
As for the “drugs” bit — kindly leave my exchanges with Joe out of your analysis of my persona. It was good fun giving as good as I got while it lasted.
And if insisting that you defend your argument is hubris — then colour me hubris. I stick to every last word I said and the way I said it.
119. .-fooFighter
(3 Comments) | October 7th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
I’ve been following this ‘little’ debate with not a little amusement. This ends here, for I have run out of popcorn.
Tribalism is a social construct; a remnant/carryover/by-product of colonialism.
Divide and rule if you will, and one needs look no further than at the comments on this blog to conclude that it’s been (and surprisingly, still is) a pretty effective divisive tool.
Whenever you’re tempted, remember this, Every time — YOU loose, and every time, THEY win.
Indeed, the only time you should look down on your ‘brother’ is when you’re helping him up.
120. Kenyangall
(5 Comments) | October 7th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Wow I am sooooooo late. I won’t read all these replies because I am tired of listening to and reading arguments about tribalism. How does all this discussing help? It just pisses off people and creates tension. Instead of having arguments and going round and round in circles we should put our brilliant minds to work on how we can fight tribalism.
121. Mama Mia
(22 Comments) | October 7th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
@Mutumia - I have to respectfully disagree with point 1 - should you be proud of your tribe? What about those with no real affiliation to any tribe? As a product of a mixed marriage, consisting of one parent who was also from a mixed marriage, and part of a mixed marriage myself, I have no sense of my Kikuyuness or Kalenjinness or Masainess or Luhyaness, but I do have a strong sense of being Kenyan.
I think it’s time Kenyans looked beyond the narrow confines of tribes and began to identify themselves as Kenyans first and foremost, and probably - if need be - just ditch this whole tribe phenomenon altogether: what purpose does it serve?
122. toiyoi
(106 Comments) | October 8th, 2006 at 7:13 am
M asked:”Why stop at tribe level?”
M, my argument is, if people are clueless enough to NOT SEE that in this 21st century you need coop and numbers to survice in a global “flat world”, they will be swallowed up by those wise enough to see and exploit their(cluelessers) weakness. So, if we ended up with LU-kenya, and acrimony and hate prevailed over reason and even more dividsions to LU-kenya-Bukusu occured and if these still decided to disunite based on clans, say {LU-kenya-Bukusu-1… n}, for Gods, sake, let them do as they please and perish (it probably means they cannot make it in this world and therefore self destruction is in order.)
M, look at all the energy wasted (and resources lost as a result to outsiders) just these 4 years as issues of “our people” versus ” them beasts” keeps our pols and admins and people like uncle Joe and Shiro busy grinding and spinning wheels. As is obvious to many(except africans) , at Rwanda /Burundi lost the last 30 or so years, Somalia lost the last decade. IS it that AFRICANS are too thick to learn even from just these cases ( World History itself bearing witness that a house divided against itself cannot stand) and do what is needed or THEY are just too afraid and would rather “kaa vivo hivyo” and be peaceful as Moi advised?
I cannot understand why we cling to the borders the Europeans drew. Eradicating the cultures is is not necessary; let a kihi be a kihi and a thief be a thief if they so wish. We failed in using language as a uniting factor, SO, lets redraw the lines the British drew. And it does not have to be done with the gun.
What are we afraid of?
123. Ken
(4 Comments) | October 9th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
A rose by any other name.
I am sorry to have to say this but the idea of ‘positive tribalism’ in Kenyan is one that most would love to hate. Look beyond the phrase and into the interpretation. “I am a Kikuyu and ABSOLUTELY love all-things-Kikuyu e.g Food, Culture,Language etc (but that does not mean i hate on other tribes).”
You can not shake off your tribal affiliations, you were born a luo, kamba, kikuyu,..whatever accepting that and being proud of it ought to be the first step.
There are mad men in your village but that does not make you mad. The few lunatics in the neighboring villages dont make everyone in the neigbouring community mad. If I prosper on your expense, it hurts whether or not I belong to your tribe, so this should not be an issue in the debate. Looking at this from a tribal perspective is wrong it should be looked at from a national perspective after all abusing another’s rights is against the Kenyan law not an issue of tribal norms. It’s a blatant lie to say that all Kyuks are better of since Kibaki got power and the same can be said of the Kalenjins in moi’s days.
It is also important to remember that the fact that a delusional Kalenjin lunatic threw a rock and broke your window doesn’t mean that all Kalenjins encouraged him to do this or share similar views. Being proud of your tribal affiliations does not imply hatred for other tribes. Diversity is something to be celebrated.
If the you dislike the phrase, simply ask yourself, whats wrong with being a [whatever tribe you belong] and then remember there is nothing wrong with not being [whatever tribe you belong].
If you move this debate into a political level, you lower the overall reasoning. I find it hard to point out a village without it’s mad men, but I find it much more difficult to find a village without it’s men of honor and integrity. Looking at the govt past and present, you will always find individuals who worked hard and did their job, you will also find layabouts who spent most of their time politicking and looting, I dont expect a difference in the immediate future. Tribalism is not a causation to corruption !! Dont be fooled, being a leader from [whatever tribe you like] does not mean he/she will work with integrity, shun corruption and preach peace and unity and neither does it mean the opposite.
One thing I have realised with marginalisation (ethnic, race, religious etc..) is that if you look for it you will always find it, even where it doesn’t exist. Sometimes ignoring it and moving on is the best way out.
I’m a Kikuyu because I can speak the language and my name suggests so. But I should never judge a man by virtue of his tribe, color, race, class, nationality or religious affiliations. This have never defined a man and never will.
Having said that, the problem may not go away so soon as we seem to keep segregating ourselves tribally (kikuyu/kalenjin/whatever radio, politicians statements, on the job tribalism, discussions in pubs … etc). I think we need a uniting figure like Desmond Tutu or Nyerere. One who through his ideals and track record can command respect from all 42 tribes and educate people so that they see how stupid our politicians make us look.
124. joe
(4 Comments) | October 9th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
KEN ! I JUA people have exausted this debate but could you be a little more original in your work .kijana we do have copy right laws .well not in tz by in kenya and the states
REF:
http://bulletsandhoney.blogspot.com/
125. Ken
(4 Comments) | October 9th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
I am the same guy who posted there Joe.
126. joe
(4 Comments) | October 9th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
go read what i said there too
127. Dr. Alfred Mutua
(1 Comments) | October 9th, 2006 at 8:34 pm
The Government has noted with great concern that some leaders have been making reckless statements that border on incitement. In the last few days, for example, a few leaders have talked about ethnic clashes in a manner meant to incite people against the Government and against each other.
The Government issues a strong warning that it will question, arrest, and prosecute such leaders regardless of their political affiliation or status in society.
The Kenya Government has been at the forefront, quelling insecurity arising from misunderstandings between different communities. The Government has been doing this through swift and firm action. People who are used to inciting others should realise that the days of doing that and getting away with it are gone. Leaders are advised to think critically and weigh their words before commenting on security issues.
The Government urges wananchi to ignore such leaders and such incitement, and to support the government when it takes strong action against such irresponsible leaders.
Dr. Alfred Mutua
Public Communications Secretary/Government Spokesperson
October 9, 2006
128. toiyoi
(106 Comments) | October 10th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
Dr Mutua, see herefor something that surely causes pride in kenyans.
129. Mutumia
(56 Comments) | October 10th, 2006 at 11:58 pm
@MamaMia- what you’re saying makes sense. Actually, a whole lot of sense. I agree with you that for many Kenyans, the notion of ‘tribe’ is not as clear cut as saying “I’m a Giriama” or “I’m a Rendille” as claiming one tribe, would negate the other e.g.what Tiger Woods said when being asked why he reckoned he wasn’t “black”- he (paraphrased) said that by claiming to only black, he negated his mother’s existence. And what I’m saying is that whatever it is that you claim- multi-tribal, or Kenyan, we *do* need to celebrate our- I guess, “heritage” is the term. It would be sad, and a tragedy if the cultural diversity that Kenya has in adudance, was lost- you know, language, wedding ceremonies, proverbs, riddles and bed time stories. All these things enrichen our collective lives. A Luhya wedding dance, a Swahili henna tatoo is something to be celebrated. The trouble comes about when we try and combine ‘pride’ with chauvinism- and the two are very different animals.
130. M
(9 Comments) | October 11th, 2006 at 10:34 am
ATTN: By some freak twist of events, the IP address of “Dr Alfred Mutua” appears to be exactly that of Joe. This means one of the following:
1) Dr Alfred Mutua is purporting to be Joe
2) Joe is purporting to be Dr Alfred Mutua
3) Dr Alred Mutua’s secret online identity is Joe, and he blogs as the same
4) During the day, Joe is The Government of Kenya’s spokesman, but by night he fights crime with his secret identity of Joe-man
My money is on #2
131. joe
(78 Comments) | October 11th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
how about 5. i was just informing readers of what the official government position is and did not intentionaly want to mislead anyone . all i wanted was to [provide the appropriate contacts for DR Mutua. sorry for any misleading that may have occured .
regards ni mimi wenyu
joe
132. joe
(78 Comments) | October 11th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
M in lit it is called stylistic devices(those who somaed 844), a ploy to drive the message home .this is just the same case in blogging (trying hard to make up this stuff lol) so when are you going to do another post . i think we need a more neutral post say on pancakes or something .i seem to be getting siasa-phobia. my be i should visit bankeleles blog see how my money is doing cheers
133. Guess
(2 Comments) | October 11th, 2006 at 7:22 pm
Hi M,
I have been following this too and got so exasperated with some of the stuff some said that I decided not to comment cos I would just be saying almost all people are saying if not more. Suffice it to say, if you are IN KENYA at the moment and you are saying that tribalism et al does not exist - that is - in my opinion - BULLSHIT. You have watched the news and read papers and listened to people whom you thought were not really tribalistic? If the answer to any of that or all of the above is ‘YES’ then let us finish this debate and think of how we can set higher standards for ourselves and the generations to come - cos it seems the fossils that abound, and some of the older generation, are too far gone.
G - and this time it sure doesnt stand for Guessaurus… M?
@Joe - Hi - I dont want to pick a dead fight but thanks for apologising to M - needless to say that was a personal insult which went far beyond just M.
134. Magaidi
(42 Comments) | October 11th, 2006 at 9:32 pm
@M, thanks for clarifying on the comment by Joe as govt. spokesman. I thought “they were out to get you man!”.
My take? If appreciating culture is being referred to as ‘Positive Tribalism’ why not just coin another phrase? This argument about being Kenyan or being Luo/Kamba/Luhya first is tired and is being to divide us among tribal lines. You can appreciate your culture without imposing it on others. It’s called being smart and even simply - common sense. Thanks.
@G - good to see you back girl. Hopefully you’ll stick around? Hmm
@Joe - Boss, get a day job bana.
135. Patrick Gathara
(38 Comments) | October 12th, 2006 at 10:41 am
M,
Sorry I’m late to the party. I have a slightly different take on the subject. I think it is fair to say that since independence 40 years ago, the tribe has proven to be the basic political unit Kenya. On almost all major issues, the people have voted tribe first. That is not a comment on the merits or demerits of the concept, just an acknowledgement of the reality. That being so, it seems to me that we should take account of it in developing our political structures. Huffing and puffing about the dangers of ukabila doesn’t seem to have gotten us anywhere. After 4 decades of banging our collective heads against that particular wall, it’s time for a rethink.
136. Patrick Gathara
(38 Comments) | October 12th, 2006 at 3:35 pm
A word to Dr. Mutua,
Nearly 5 years of “the Government issues a strong warning that it will question, arrest, and prosecute such leaders regardless of their political affiliation or status in society. . . . People who are used to inciting others should realise that the days of doing that and getting away with it are gone” are 5 years too long. Just tell your boss to get to work.
And by the way, if he were so interested in formenting tribal peace, why appoint the instigator of the 1992 land clashes as the Government peace envoy to the region?
M,
Sorry to raise that issue here, but it is not every day nor at every blog that one gets to interrogate Kibaki’s mouthpiece.
137. Mwangi - the Displaced African
(50 Comments) | March 10th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
And a little over one year later, just how silly the idea of positive tribalism is came out in full force. Amazing how you were on point so long before the violence.
138. Jack
(1 Comments) | May 21st, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I think we are getting too far on positive tribalism. I am a multilingual Christian living in Kenya, nothing else. If we understand this concept we would appreciate why in England, for instance, they dont talk about tribes (though there are and there were). They, in stead talk about Britons, and nothing else.