Will someone please answer my hypothetical question (ok, maybe not so hypothetical), we have company X and for the last 10+ years, most of the people were from tribe y, currently tribe w has taken over governance or leadership of company x and now wants to promote all tribe w people qualified or not because they feel that w’s were neglected in the past and now they are ENTITLED to better jobs, no body cares if tribe y was doing a good job, if you are not from tribe w you are out of a job SORRY.
Is this tribal bashing if we say this is wrong and people should be employed etc depending on qualifications and actually knowing and performing the job satisfactorily etc.

Just because you are from my tribe should you get better privileges than anybody else because we were suppresed in the past?
Tribe is the problem, we all agree on that (well most of us do) so if this is the case then every tribe needs a turn to balance things out right? But where will this lead us?

Bottom line if any one group feels they are entitled to better things or being first in whatever it is then we have lots of negativity and resentment brewing and it doesn’t matter if this group is larger than the other groups!
Joe, “to use ur american example its like african americans complaining there are too many whites in government -yet we all know whites are a majority in population”

Interesting statement Joe, are you forgeting the slavery years and how this ended up being the case?

Yes we are all Kenyans.

But, belonging to certain ethnic groups can be a disadvantage.
Bearing in mind some geographic boundaries are also tribal,

A woman in the North Eastern province is more likely to be circumcised, less likely to have access to a hospital, less likely to receive antenatal care and less likely to have her baby immunised when compared to a woman from Central province.

So to say we are all Kenyans and should focus less on agitating for the rights of our people is to ignore that there are massive disparities, based not only on the usual socioeconomic status but also on tribal background.

The first step to making things more equitable is to recognise that some tribes are disadvantaged, no matter what mind numbingly stupid statements are used to express this.
So is an MP from the N.E province justified in agitating for the rights of his people….HECK YEAH!

So here’s one vote for positive tribalism( in the right context of course)

Source: Kenya Demographic and Health Survey 2003 preliminary report

Ciku

@VituVingiSana
I hear you on Tanzania. I feel Tanzania, socially, are a century ahead of Kenya. It shows even in their person-person interaction. It is probably possible to be robbed politely at gunpoint in Tanzania. Ujamaa set them back economically, but it had GREAT advantages. It is one of the great tragedies of East African history that we did not use our capitalism to better ourselves economically, as much as they used their socialism to better themselves socially – in all likelihood we shall probably NEVER be as socially mature as they are, as the comments on this post have shown.

I once visited Zambia and it was SO refreshing to be in a country where politics can actually exist sans-tribe issues. I cannot even begin to explain just how good that is. There, the main issue is whether the man is doing a good job or not.

By the way:
Our neighbours are snapping at our heels economically (higher growth rates, in 2003 investors put $82 million in Kenya compared to $283 million in Uganda and $248 million in Tanzania). Uganda, by the way, was embroiled in a Civil War in the same time as Ujamaa had the ascendancy in Tanzania. And yet to look at these figures, one would think it was we who had embraced socialism, we who had a Civil War (God forbid).

This probably deserves a post.

“unhappy with Anglo Leasing, unhappy with corruption in KRA, unhappy with MP’s perks (Standard today), unhappy with ministerial largesse, unhappy with the potholes and traffic jams on the way home due to incompleted bypasses”

Me too.

But i am also happy with

“Increasing opportunities at NSE, a cleaner town, tarmacked Nrb city, working parastatals, a better civil service, shamed corrupt leaders, job opportunities”

Thats enough reason

I am sorry to post all these comments.

There is one thing people do not understand

“Kenyans are tribalists; the only difference is whichever tribe is in power appears more tribal”

I will tell you for sure today in a Luo law firm i know in town, all their staff is Luo. Another Kikuyu one i know has staff who are kikuyu. And so is Kisii, Meru, Kamba more likely to employ their own.

why?

Trust and Confidentiality.

Because many persons are afraid to lose their trade secrets and trust their own. As i said in this post, tribalism has its roots and the thing is we must introduce a mechanism to deal with it. http://sylkwan.blogspot.com/2006/02/we-are-going-long-way.html#comments.

I experienced tribalism at the hands of Kalenjins and Luos. Yet the same people will turn around and say Kikuyus are tribalists. The thing is that it is defeatist to say other people are tribalists and yet do the same thing when your turn arrives. Or is it tribalism when it is done by a Kikuyu and Not You?

Having identified that tribalism is a bad thing, why don’t we have a commission to deal with the issue. Just like KACC.

To answer all your questions M;

I do not agree entirely. These are things that me, as a Kenyan, am entitled to. I should not give thanks to the benevolence of the Kibaki government for giving me things that are mine as a right!

While i agree it is your right. The former Govt denied us all these rights; and there is nothing we did about it!!!! Is it ok to say you enlist in the Kenyans who want to see something bad in everything. Most African countries are in some war or another and we are not; Thanks To Moi for at least did something to avoid it.

There is no logical progression between looking for power and being a tribalist. That is too much of a stetch.

This sounds to me suspiciously like tribe is a factor in your voting patterns. I hope that is not the case!

Tribalism or not; i think Kibaki is the better evil than Raila & Co. If i have tribalism aspersions then in my judgement at the moment are silent. I am looking at what i have gained versus what i can lose as a person. I have gained nothing from a Kikuyu presidency apart from what i put my mind and efforts to doing. Like if i invest well, i get returns. That really matters to me!!!!!

If i was a tribalist; i would support Uhuru for ODM presidency but i am and will not. Enough said

People need to change their mindsets. Themselves. If individual people change then the society as a whole will change

I fully agree with you. But just as the case maybe changing people’s mindset is a story for another day. Let us try a commission and if it doesn’t work we move on to something different. Because tribalism and corruption is different though both hurts the economy.

What i am saying is when i am a Kikuyu as i am; I am discriminated against by others. Asians, and all other tribalists in Kenya. I hear some people

“Hii Kikuyu hii?” and i am dumbfounded. Same applies to others. It is a national tragedy!!!!!

One more last thing.

Just because Kibaki has not performed par excellence doesn’t make Raila better than him. As in the better evil issue.

It would be a different ball game, if it was Anyang Nyongo who is seeking leadership. Because we know Anyang Nyongo is a brilliant man. For me Raila is too unstable to run this country!!!! And the fact he would want to be the alter-for Kibaki is in itself unbelievable

Ati tribonophobia = fear of persons who are not your tribesmen !!!!!!!!!!!!!………….and Raila is a tribalist because he is tribal !!!!!!!

MY CONCLUSION: On the 8th day, God made Kenyans.

You can only bang on a brick wall for so long ….but am glad out of this whole issue people like Chrenyan realise the dangers of backing people into a corner and continuing to insinuate that its all of us against them.

Grivances have to have better ways of being articulated rather than criminalizing and demonizing ONE community for all your problems. Shameless promotion oF Opposition politics should be left of of these issue (just as it should have been left out of the constitution issue).A hardline stand will only be met with an even harder hardline stand.(you can read what you want into it)

To M ,railamaniacs and all other ODM youthwingers. i have a kyuk saying for you .”mweke uria mwekaga mwarakara” translated Stop making noise and kicking up dust . if you want to do something do it !talk is cheap anybody can do it .do something

have to budge in here. The way i see it is being of a certain tribe should not make you feel superior than the other after being a luo or kyuk or whatever does not add anything value to your life. But being of little minds akina Joe’s of this country are hallucinating by “one” of their own being in state house or whenever, but still si we can see all kyuks are in statehouse governing Kenya for all we know Joe could be the one incharge of loo warming commitee

Bringing me out of the woodwork…I read the comments mpaka it got to the point where I have lost the gist of this discussion….sigh.

I will say this….I am Kenyan first, Meru/Maasai/Kikuyu next…Tell me, where would I gravitate towards if it came to splitting where my ancestors hailed from?

This is sad. This discussion is sad. It is sad to see that in this day and age, people still habor retrogressive idealogies, mediocre to say the least, where things are run by ‘where I come from’ rather than what I can deliver, what I can do, my integrity.

And I fail to see how one can honestly identify themselves by tribe, even engage in chest thumping/ thumpchesting that “my tribe is better than yours” What the FUCK? Are we seriously even contemplating these things or are we kidding. How are we going to think globally if we cant even think locally? How do you even begin to embrace beyond kenyan borders if by the time you set out to do that you are not fully and 100% Kenyan?

Being proud of one’s culture and tribalism are two very very differnt things!!! I am proud of traditions passed on to me by my grandparents, I am proud of my roots, to not be alienated, to uphold values of generosity and a regard for family…..that, has nothing, nothing to do with specific tribe. Sure yes, some practices are exclusive to some tribes, but evryone has a tribe, and that tribe has a culture, and we need to depart from the tribe, take the culture we want to keep, and make the move towards being Kenyan.
So yes, you can divorce people form their tribe and leave them their culture. Celebrating heritage is celebrating culture, the values, the norms…celebrating the diversity of where we come from. And since everyone comes from their different culture, that is what the celebration is about. Once again…we are not celebrating the bloody tribe, we are celebrating the practices of the tribe.

How in hell does celebrating that culture then, say, I celebrating the fact that to marry me a man will need to take 1 or 70 cows to my parents….how in hell is that a basis for whether I get voted into parliament or not? How?

I fail at eloquence, but what I mean to say is, if you feel the need to keep identifying yourslef by your tribe, if you find yourself judging people by their tribe instead of their character and integrity, according favors to some and leaving out others by virtue of their tribe, something is wrong with you. Something gross is wrong with you. Something retarded is up with you. If you are even making decisons, revolutional decisions such as who to vote, what direction you are going to propel the country towards, based on someone’s tribe….YOU NEED TO SEE SOMEONE ABOUT THAT!!!

Shi, I can understand the fact that you feel bitterly about say, discrimination at work. And I feel it with you because those are exactly the same mindsets that we need to change. To the point where, even your own child will not get preference over a more reliable and qualified nondescript, but you must realise that the cahneg has to begin somewhere, with you, chosing to see yourself as Kenyan first, without losing the gist of who you are.
And the minute you say Kibaki is the better devil to Raila, you need to substantiate that with ONLY what he ahs or has not done, and at no point should tribe come into play. At NO time. The minute ‘Luo’ or ‘Kikuyu’ comes into the jsutification, then you are arguing from a flawed perspective. Its another thing altogether that none of them deserves to be there by virtue of the disappointments they have all handed us, but is that not what your vote next year is meant to communicate?

I just came to say Hallo M.
Hallo M.

OH PLEASE !I wouldnt delete my blog even for you M. i tried resoning and having a frank conversation but you would have none of it .you are the one who started the insults ,anyone reading the comments can see that .ALL THIS TALK…do something if you are going to do it

To be on the fence and watch as drama unfolds is wonderful. Okay I’m done following the circus. Lets be serious, why are we attacking Joe vehemently like that. First of, the term that Joe uses on superiority I believe he meant from anthropological point of view

To explain it from a pre-colonial era and the trickle down effect thereafter. Now he didn’t mean to say that Kikuyu blood is sweeter than Luos or any of that as some contributors are insinuating.

If you look at pre-colonial Kenya, it is true some tribes were more structured politically, economically, socially and culturally superior than others and that determined their survival pre and post colonial era.

Some tribes were more accessible to education, business acumen, et al than others post colonial era thus rendering them economically and politically powerful.

Some tribes too due to the sufferings during colonial era, they formed a strong bond of looking after each other and thus up to date, there is that camaraderie that still exists and thus has concentrated the power to themselves and naturally they came from the same tribe. Now, is it wrong for them to shun the others out? Yes/no depending on how you look at it. Do the member of that particular tribe benefits from the small group of powerful people, HELL NO! So generalizing one tribe for the actions of the others is just wrong and thus the person casting that stone on a tribe based on the actions of a few is no better !

To me the debate is not about the tribes but rather the economic /power imbalance is what creates the so called tribalism because I know for a fact a kikuyu and a Luo in Mathare slums will take a bullet for each other any day. And a Luo living in Nyeri is seen as a neighbor by his kyuk neighbor than is seen as Luo. Well I think we need to hold all the leaders accountable for they are the ones in quest to gain favor from their people who create the “superiority /inferiority complex” of a tribe.

We also need to embrace the uniqueness of each tribe and understand that each prides itself for what they are and no matter how many times we say we are all the same, no we are not because culturally we all have different experiences. We all need to understand these differences and to understand that if for all these years we have co-existed , then why are we creating a non – existence tribal war when it is all comes down to what I said before Economic Imbalance. That is what we should be addressing, the causes and solutions. Otherwise even within the tribe, there is internal fighting between the haves and the have nots!

Disclaimer: I think we need to critically analyze each comment without going an all out attack, embrace the good points as well otherwise the one sided attack is in bad taste. Acknowledging a good point from your opponent speaks very loud about a leader!

Irena you started out well but unfortunately you stumbled,

If you look at pre-colonial Kenya, it is true some tribes were more structured politically, economically, socially and culturally superior than others and that determined their survival pre and post colonial era.

Many tribes ended up having more because they came from areas that had more natural resources and they took advantage of it and as time went by they carried on this exploratory and entrepreneurial mindset. Let me tell you if you took Kikuyus from the fertile highlands and took them to the impoverished Northern Kenya pre-independance they would be just as poor as the people who live there now and would even have the same mindset. No culture is superior, culture develops in response to the circumstances it finds itself in.

But I do agree with you that we need to acknowledge our diversity and embrace it, instead of letting it divide us.

A simple illustration.

This whole thing about tribalism is fast degenerating into what Hon .Michuki termed a danger to state security. What was a frank discussion is now clearly promoting tribal animosity .I just hope that when M gets picked up he has a good lawyer.

The point I was trying to get across put simply is this .Kenya is like a marriage. When a couple comes together they come together as a man and a woman. bring the different qualities that make them as individuals but working together to make the marriage work. The marriage can’t work if both parties disregard that they are different and have different roles. It is this differences and the harnessing of the differences that makes the marriage work. The same thing applies to Kenya. Some people say we should do away with tribe and just be Kenyans .other like myself say first be proud of yourself and your community and bring that same love and contribute to Kenya. A famous pastor once said you have to be a complete man before you can go looking to settle down with a wife.

The same applies to Kenya. Be proud of where you come from .Then bring that to the table and contribute to nation building .diversity is not a disadvantage. It is a gift that should be harnessed .be proud of your community and your people. It is only those with narrow minds who equate pride in tribal heritage to mean a dislike for all others.

I will always be proud of my heritage .I hope you can be proud of yours

“Let me tell you if you took Kikuyus from the fertile highlands and took them to the impoverished Northern Kenya pre-independance they would be just as poor as the people who live there now and would even have the same mindset. No culture is superior, culture develops in response to the circumstances it finds itself in”

Acolyte: Maybe some are more innovative+ have better survival skills than others thus rendering themselves superior N.Eastern or no N.Eastern analogy.

Sometimes it is not all a matter of geographical location otherwise maybe some areas would harness the natural resources they have to better themselves but choose not to …sijui… I could give examples but as I have been warned by Jean , let me not rattle the pythons LOL…

Allow me to digress, Irena where is your blog.. apparently you have elected to delete it, I was very interested in reading it. And this question is just a question, no hidden agenda.
Thank you :-)

I agree with Aco, Man is man….. and we all have the potential to suceed in whatever we want to become or fail miserably regardless of where you are from. This has nothing to do with tribe, whatever view we take. At birth opportunities might vary not because of your tribe but because of the environment and circumstances. For example, not all children from rich parents suceed in life even with everything handed to them and not all children from poor families end up poor… There are two basic arguments but please note that none mention tribe or certain geographical regions.

“Nature versus nurture is a shorthand expression for debates about the relative importance of an individual’s innate qualities (“nature”) versus personal experiences (“nurture”) in determining or causing individual differences in physical and behavioral traits. Nativism is the view that certain skills or abilities are ‘native’ or hard wired into the brain at birth. This is in contrast to the ‘blank slate’ or tabula rasa view which states that the brain has little innate ability and almost everything is learned through interaction with the environment”.

Source : Wikipedia

So Joe, with these words;
come on aco i think we all know that irena is talking about genetic predisposition key word “predisposition” she hasnt claimed genetic exclusivity to acumen.
You are saying that some tribes have some gene or other that makes them more likely to suceed if placed in the right environment than others? Is this gene more prevalant in those who live in the fertile highlands than those who live in the parched reaches of Nothern Kenya?
Also this argument goes both ways;
the capacity we are born with/learn things can be blocked by Negative environmental influences.
It can be argued that positive environmental influences enhances the natural abilities we have.

Thinker : You can interprete my points/opinions/not so intelectual way of putting my point across they way you want but I’m sure you get my point… Perhaps not all of us can eloquently put a point across but your “darwinism theory” is not what I was referring to Thinker!!! to clarify my “survival” point but hey again you can look at it the way you want.

Also my business acumen referral does not mean the way you want to potray it but again you and your followers can say it better than I can, to get the point home .

Your style of attacking those who oppose certain points or those stand on their opinion or painfully trying to communicate in Queen’s English is rather tasteless. I’m surprised and again I’m not on the way you counter-attack arguments and other people’s opinion as if yours is better off than others. I repeated what you were saying but may I say you are not the first or the last to talk about tribal issues and any other issues affecting Kenya in your blog or any other forum , so quit your sheepish comment “I’m chewing gum” crap!

Why can’t you dismiss other people’s opinion in gentlemanly manner like Acolyte does most times( acolyte do not hate me , I still have much wendo for you..lol) without egoistically trying to put down other people’s comment whether you agree with them or not. Again, I do not need your accolades or you to agree with me on my points on this discussion but stop behaving as if we should all agree with you !If you do not understand the point one was putting across simply ask one to substantiate. That is what a healthy discussion is all about .

Joe or anyone for that matter has a right to their opinion however crude or however unimaginable !!! If you do not want us to disagree with you or have different opinions , then switch off your comment section!

@Sarah: Pole, been extremely busy to blog anymore !

Wow… to think I missed all this drama Its a Tribal Thang starring M, Joe, Shiroh & a stellar blogging cast!

Alternate titles:
Baby, its not you its just Tribal
Kenyans – The Ignorami

Also walk-on roles for kibz (as winnie the pooh), michuki (as QRU watchie), raira, wako (as eeyore), etc…

After reading Shiroh’s arguments to SUPPORT tribalism… why do we get our knickers in a knot when Jungus hire Jungus OR Wahindis hire Wahindis?
Isn’t that racist? Isn’t it wrong? But when Shiroh does the same its OK?

In any case, the government is NOT a private business & it has NO right to hire from “special” tribes only… Hire the best…

As far as Joe… my oh my, kihii??? Are we getting testy ala michuki? For all your arguments, the kihii comment reveals your true nature. All the posturing, arguments, logic & sense washed away by one little word!

:”If you feel threatened by a challenge to back up your claims … what can I say?” Threatened by you , please my dear do not flatter yourself, I only do not have time to populate your blog with my thoughts. I did so in mine when I used to blog. You or anyone else cannot threaten me . I’m not one of those you intimidate . I think it is vice versa that the fact that someone does not agree with you , you feel threatened hence why you attack with insult first typical of …. I will not join the queue, you views or your self importance is not that important to me.

“I’m sorry but I’m not going apologize to you or to anyone for asking you to substantiate your claims! You reserve your right to disagree with me. Also reserve mine to disagree with you”

I didn’t ask for apologies , why should you even think it? I would care less whether you agree with me or not and it is your blog you can do whatever you wish since you have your comment opne for all then I reserve to say whatever… so I think on that we agree.

“linking an insightful assessment of the external business landscape with the keen awareness of how money can be made” –
I ‘m sure you are good with googling , and I can assure you I know all about that BEYOND GOOGLE DEFINITION! a nd ccan offer a comprehensive insight on that .. please spare me the intimidation and your all the almighty Thinker approach. I for one have no time for your recycled materials that you callyour ideas . With that sina hiyo saa kwa sababu I have my BUSINESS to take care of… ciao amigo!

Whoa, on the lighter side following M’s lead…
Joe, how do you know if M is a kihii or not? Peekaboo, I see you???

M- you better be careful when you use the gym showers coz there are some dude/ss (wannabe dudette/s) who are checking your,um, hanger… In any case, you shouldn’t be hanging your f***skin out to dry like that coz u might be causing (name withheld) to go all krazy over you!

Me thinks M will cause (name withheld) to blow a fuse… soon!

Peace out!
95 & counting…

After reading Shiroh’s arguments to SUPPORT tribalism… why do we get our knickers in a knot when Jungus hire Jungus OR Wahindis hire Wahindis?
Isn’t that racist? Isn’t it wrong? But when Shiroh does the same its OK?

@Vitu Vingi Sana

I do not support tribalism (Wrong) but unlike you i am not A SOPHISTICATED person who refuses to accept that tribalism does exist. And to me, the reasons why tribalism exist are simple, people (as corrected) think they can trust their tribesmen and they associate with them for a long time.

I hope i don’t have to answer anyone else.

I ask to be allowed to register some slight puzzlement at reading Joe on M’s blog saying “this rubbish of tribalism that does not even exist” and then reading Joe on Joe’s blog saying tribalism is on the rise here in Kenya.

That aside, Joe, let me say this in the most friendly, most reconciling way I know how.

M is not an ODM-K youth winger. This is why I posted a comment on the veritable gulf that exists between being unhappy with the Government and being happy with ODM-K. There is an ocean in between. ODM-K would have you think there isn’t, but there is. Don’t be tricked by ODM. Just try and see M as a Kenyan unhappy with the phrase ‘positive tribalism’. I believe that is all you can divine from his post and subsequent comments. It is long, long way from there to “Kikuyu-bashing”.

What would you say if you knew that M was, in fact, circumsized? Perhaps a large platform of your arguments against M would simply dissolve, wouldn’t they? Especially a certain one-word, five-letter argument that has been dissected at length…

This last point leads on to the question that I was sorry to have to ask in my first ka-comment: “Why on earth should it even matter?”