Let’s get one thing straight. Saddam Hussein was one of the worlds most colossal asses. There is little doubt that he was a vicious, brutal and merciless human being that subjected millions of his own people to brutal savagery under his despotic rule.
Some 6 or so hours ago he was given the Christmas gift of being strung up by his neck until he was dead. And in this era of a world obsessed with reality TV, networks were falling over each other to broadcast footage of the schmuck being led to the gallows and the noose being put around his neck.
But I for one do not believe that Saddam should have been hanged. If anything the hanging raisers more questions than answered
Why?
- Tell me, precisely what has been achieved by this hanging? I hear talk about closure. What closure? How will stringing up his mangy hide bring back the loved ones lost? What satisfaction can be derived from this?
- Those people who came up with shotgun weddings can also add shotgun hangings to the list. Can you spell rushed? Why? Did the noose have an expiry date of 1 January 2007? Could the hands controlling the marionettes from across oceans have a hand to play?
- Hanging Saddam merely infuriates his Shiite supporters still further and all this pointless act will achieve is even greater levels of infighting and civil war.
- Most importantly, Saddam did VERY MANY unspeakable things in his long and un-illustrious rule. The only person who knows all the grisly things Saddam Hussein did in great detail is Saddam Hussein. And now that he is dead, all that information is lost as well. There are things that Saddam did that we will now never know.As Saint Peter looks over his books Saddam must be thinking “Who’s laughing now?”
- I have always thought that execution was a very easy way out. There is simply no punishment better than living with the consequences your actions.
So if you find yourself celebrating Saddam’s death, think long and hard if it is really worth celebrating.
It isn’t.
Lupe Fiasco & Jill Scott – Daydream
Is it possible that I can be the first one to comment on this famous blog??
I agree that hanging Saddam has achieved nothing and you are right on rushed hanging, I just wondered how fast they execute convicted people in US. I think they have people on death row for years and years! (why the comparison – I firmly believe there is the hidden hand of US govt in all this! )
I know it sounds out of this world but I don’t think the guy who was arrested is Saddam Hussein. Remember how he was shaved to resemble the last photo of Saddam Hussein? And knowing well how our Arab brothers resemble each other, and also knowing the history of Arab terrorists, wasn’t it too easy to capture Saddam Hussein while Osama still remains in some unidentified hole/cave somewhere? I’m sure we have not heard the last of Saddam Hussein. For all we know he might be planning a collabo with Osama and hell knows what the future holds. Again I insist that these are just my thoughts and opinions which I’m entitled to. Over and out!
Hear hear – esp point 5. Would ‘rite’ more but need to need to catch up on all you been up to in the last 6 or so months – it is good to be back though. Hope you well and Happy New Year.
I do agree with your post, there is nothing much to celebrate here. One major thing as you have said is that extremists have now been given a martyr.
It would have been much better to sentence him to life imprisonment so he would be a living example of what happens to despots. Hanging was a convenient way out.
Anyway I am sure some neo-cons in Washington are celebrating the hanging. They may have won a victory in the battle but there is still a long war looming ahead in the Middle East.
The whole affair has a redemption-seeking-Dubya scent all over it. After the embarrassment of getting told off by the Iraq Study Group, losing the mid-terms and having to let Donald go, something[someone] had to give.
Apparently the talk of a major change of strategy in the expedition from hell included a reaffirmation in the biblical doctrine, eye for an eye.
Ironically, after watching the story about Sadaam’s sons, the guy might not be as ruthless as we were told. He was just a weak father. all those crimes were committed by his kidos. He should have just been shown pictures of his sons dead to torture him.
M, if anyone had the audacity to think that they had the right to kill any member of my family, I sure as hell want to see him dead. As far as I’m concerned he has no right to live and yes, it would make me feel better knowing that he is not walking on this earth or breathing the same air that I am coz he doesn’t deserve to. Even worse, imagine if u had a child and this bastard decided to kill him/her…for no reason…as in just because?! Trust me, I don’t think u would give a shit about all the other grisly things he’s done, all that would matter is what he did to your child; you’d want to be the one to pull the lever…I know I would.
As for timing, it couldn’t have come sooner. I think as long as he was alive his supporters would have felt the need to go killing ovyo ovyo incase for whatever reason, he tokas and retaliates semaing they didn’t “’support him enough”.
Have a Happy New Year M!!
Looking forward to another year of somaing your posts!
I like your thought-provoking comments.
Just for the record…The Shiites are Saddam’s enemies, not his supporters. It is the Sunnis who support him, and he was a Sunni himself.
I agree that his hanging will only further infuriate his supporters.
Keep up the good work of keeping our grey cells busy!
Happy New Year
they should have left him in jail .anyway happy new year M i have enjoyed your blog this year .have a better 2007
yep!dodgy business!
yep!dodgy business!
Happy new year to you thinker!
What bothers me most about capital punishment is not whether dudes deserve to die, but whether we, as society, should kill them. Killing is wrong, but we are being asked to do it. And no matter what crimes he committed, we are complicit in the killing of another human being.
It doesn’t sit well. I would be more comfortable throwing him back into his little bunker-hole.
Capital punishment may seem obnoxious – killing is a hateful thing – and it may appear more fitting that a stone-hearted murderer be kept alive so that he can be made to suffer for the rest of his life.
But reality isn’t THAT simple…In the world we live in, there is always the possibility of a pardon; often, the criminal eventually gets to walk the streets once again.
If you are the mother of an infant who was brutally raped and murdered, chances are you would much prefer to see him be put to death than to hear he has got a life-sentence, only to be freed a few decades later. I have seen parents on tv expressing their utter anguish at seeing people who killed their children due to drink-driving be let off with three years’ jail. Many people having lost dear ones in this way are asking for no less than the death penalty, so that it never happens again. The figures speak out: a noticeable percentage of people who cause the death of others re-offend when freed, even after lengthy periods behind bars.
So the death penalty? Obnoxious? Yes. But also a sure way to prevent OTHERS from becoming victims. At any rate, if there is a hell, hopefully they will be punished there. And if there isn’t, then at least capital punishment will have saved the rest of the world from their evil.
He was indeed one hell of an arrogant dictatorial ruler. I do agree that he should not have been hung so soon. But since the threat of his escape is real, he had to be neutralized.
I am hoping that since their man is no longer alive, the Sunnis will lose focus and hopefully the violence will peter down and we may finally have a semblance of peace in Iraq.
I agree with you M, execution is the fast way out.The timing of the hanging at the end of eid-al-adha is rather unfortunate. And to the insurgents, a martyr has been made.
Happy New Year M.
M… Happy New Year!!!
I have to say in regard to Saddam, you have spoken my mind…
i asked my self over and over again as news of the dude’s hanging was played over and over and wondered, what possible satisfaction could one get?!?!
Like you i think the best punishment would have been for him to live with what he had done while behind bars to think about it…
Seems that our world is obsessed with revenge.. but is it right?!!?!?
It’s easy to pontificate for or against the death penalty but we have such short memories…
Who remembers the days when moi was just as ruthless? I cringe when I hear people referring to moi as “mzee”… as a sign of respect…
Have we forgotten the murders during the Likoni clashes?
What of Burnt Forest?
Weren’t these lives just as valuable as moi’s?
saddam killed 100s if not thousands – by his hand or through his actions & proxies)…
Resources are scarce… so where would you lock him up?
Who would lock him up?
Who would fund his incarceration?
Who would “protect” him while in prison?
Watching the video is sobering (almost made me feel sorry for saddam) but he like mugabe, amin or hitler was complicit in the deaths of INNOCENTS… and not just incidental deaths but those committed to create fear among the Kurds & Shiites.
saddam even has his sons-in-law executed for denouncing him & running away to Jordan!
saddam thought he was all-powerful just like hitler did… mugabe is killing Zimbabweans who disagree with him. The AU (and many Africans) applaud mugabe’s actions but ask a Zimbabwean (not a crony) & he is crying for lack of food & shelter.
Why are we concerned about saddam when we have skeletons in our cupboards including the murders of Pio Gama Pinto, Tom Mboya & JM Kariuki?
What about the numerous “unknowns” killed by kenyatta & moi’s regime?
Even kibaki (though not directly involved) was a minister during those dark days…
Ask Kenyans ( I have0 who have lost a close friend or relative during moi’s era about how they feel about moi… It is instructive to note that they would not mind the same fate for him…
Kenyans, weep not for saddam but for the victims of his misrule… weep for the Africans who suffer every day under dictators like mugabe & bongo… weep for the Kenyans who lost their lives & livelihood when they stood upto moi & his cronies…
Charity begins at home…
To M and all your esteemed readers: A happy new year…once again its all for one and one for all……
So they actually hanged him? Some pratt in the office was saying ati he was just given a ’suspended sentence’…
On a serious note I have to say that M you must have been aware that this was going to be a dodgy topic. I agree completely with your views about nothing being gained, no murdered loved ones coming back, no wars being ended, no WMDs being found by the hanging of Saddam Hussein….(and his co defendants….btw). I also agree that the manner of his execution and the obviously voyeuristic quality that this dreadful act has acquired as the images have been sent around the world via newsmedia, email, sms and the likes of you-tube paint a horrible picture of what we have all collectively become. In my mind to download and watch/listen to the dying man being humiliated is as contaminating as having taken part in the filthy act. But I am not here to lecture…all good people say they hate capital pinishment by they rush very quickly to watch a mob-justice victim…
That said Saddam had to go. Saddam and all those like him over the years who have used their power and authority to order the killing of defenceless civilians as though they were flies. Saddam and all those who have ordered the killing of their political rivals whether here or abroad. How many here remember Ken Saro Wiwa? Hanging Saddam is a lesson to all these people…..”You are running out of places to hide….”
A Sunni tyrant dictator, sentenced by a court of Shiites and Kurds and hang amid taunts from supporters of Sadr, his eternal enemies. The Iraqi govt cannot pretend to have followed due procedure.
Granted, Saddam was a very evil man, but I refuse to buy the argument being peddled by most that he deserved the injustice that he meted out to others. Putting aside the debate whether hanging is state-sponsored violence/murder, to hang someone before you conclude his other trials for worse crimes smacks of a rushed process. The US and the Iraqi govt can pat themselves on the back for granting Sunni Muslims a ‘matyr’ to rally behind.
America and the puppet Iraqi regime have a long way to go. One man’s death wont stop the daily deaths of the Iraqi people. Neither will it deter other tyrants we have in this world.
Here’s an article in THE INDEPENDENT by Robert Fisk that’s worth a read. All about Saddam and the hypocrisy of the West, entitled: “A dictator created then destroyed by America”
If the link doesn’t work, copy paste it into your address bar:-
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article2112555.ece
I don’t believe in Capital Punishment. I don’t also believe in any punishment that is not aimed at “awakening” the guilty party to the reality that society abhors their bad behavior. Behavior, in as far as our current knowledge, time-space, and belief take as “unacceptable norm.” But whereas I am not a Christian either, I hold in high esteem the Good Words of the Good Lord from the Good Book; when He avers: ” Vengeance is Mine.”
So Saddam is dead, the gory pictures and all. What has the world gained? NOTHING. They even convicted him on one of his “lesser charges.” Now consider that 600,000 Iraqis and 3,000 American soldiers have died in this war premised on WMD that never were.
The Shiites even taunted Saddam at the gallows, a dying man who had no chance in hell of escaping. Meanwhile, the real killer, that Maloprop from Texas was running off his butt from a Tornado in his ranch. Do real men behave this way?
Increasingly, I realize, America has become so Myopic that we need a lens expert, probably from Nairobi, to correct this blindness. Because America even assumes that, now that the Islamists have been driven out of Mogadishu– the world is safer.
Hmmmm…..
Expect more insurgency in Iraq. The Sunnis will definitely revenge.
Beware Nairobi. Beware Addis. Tough times lie ahead.
America made Saddam. They even made Osama. Who deserved to die?
Saddam?, Bush, or Tiny Tony? Let me know, when you know.
Keep Safe. Happy New Year!!
Now that they found someone to hang Saddam, pray tell when do they find someone to hang George Bush. A terrorist by any other name will still hang the same!
Interesting how human psychology works…
Most posters are probably Kenyans who are focused on Saddam… but blithely ignore that there are murderers among us (i.e. Kenyans)…
Then focus on our African neighbours & their neighbours… Where is felicien kabuga (Rwanda) one of the masterminds behind the genocide in Rwanda?
mugabe continues killing Zimbabweans but oddly many Kenyan think him a hero!
It amuses & saddens me when Africans criticize the “West” about their non-involvement in Darfur while the AU ignores another genocide under the pretext that Sudan is a “sovereign” nation. I remember when dan “the idiot” moi used that excuse while screwing Kenyans!
While many Kenyans are sympathetic about the death of a MURDERER while ignoring the suffering in our midst…
Well, like I said earlier, human nature is very interesting…
Happy New Year M, May this be a wonderful year for you.
This being a very dicey situation, I will keep it short, I don’t support the death penalty because I don’t think it punishes the person to the maximum limit & because I don’t believe in anyone choosing when another person should die and by what means, BUT that said I don’t know what could punish Saddam and all other tyrants out there so……
This doesn’t mean that if someone killed someone I loved, I wouldn’t want to go after them and kill them… all rationality at this point flies out of the window, but does that 2nd death bring closure? I don’t think so & God forbid I ever have to find out first hand.
What is sad is that the headline news on my village newspapaer today read:
“10yr old hangs himself as he mimicks Saddam’s hanging”.
Sad.. very very very Sad….. question… Who is to blame?!!?
Real sad about the kid but was it really about saddam?
Was it suicide or was it playing with other kids?
For a 10-year old, that is just being stupid. Yes, it is sad but stupid.
How did the kid get access to the “hanging” video?
No major news channels (including fox) showed the actual hanging!
You Tube has it but only if you log in as an adult (18+)… if the kid lied about his/her age well, he/she lied!
The ‘video’ of the hanging was a bootleg i.e. it was NOT sanctioned by the Iraqi government. It should never have been made in the first place.
Kids play cruel games. How many times have we seen images of child soldiers killing others? Unlike adults, kids might not grasp the finesse of “conscience”…
Anyway, to answer your question… if there is blame, then blame the victim – I have not read the story, please provide a link – who might also be the perpetrator.
[...] In the African blogosphere, Sudanese Thinker, suffering conflicting emotions on seeing the execution video, excoriates Saddam apologist bloggers. Next door, in Kenya, M of Thinker’s Room sparks off a debate about capital punishment among his international readership in a post entitled “They Shouldn’t Have Hanged Saddam”. UK-based Olawunmi takes a starkly different view, sending Nigeria’s leaders a memento mori, that what happened to Saddam can easily happen to other wayward leaders. Another trenchant Nigerian blogger, Akin, advocates turning Saddam’s posthumous trial for genocide into a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. But the most downbeat confession comes from Nkem Ifejika, also based in the UK: On the night he was executed, a group of us had a debate about capital punishment. I am against it. Not because I believe the worst of humankind should be spared the indignity of state execution, but for our own dignity. We, the judge, jury, and excutioner. We are the ones who need to preserve our own nobility by not killing people. What has killing Saddam gained the world? One less mouth to feed maybe, but other than that – nothing. Is it ever possible for capital punishment to be seen as anything loftier than state sanctioned revenge? I think not. When we were growing up, most of our parents told us not to hit back. Turn the other cheek. Revenge is for the Lord. But even one of the mot theocratic governments in the world, the US government, is in favour of the death penalty. [...]
Revenge is for the Lord…I agree that TRUE and ULTIMATE revenge is for God alone and that there must be some kind of divine retribution for all the crimes and injustice that human beings can’t begin to encompass, let alone punish, or else one would be left with a sense of unending anguish. The thought that the wicked will ultimately pay for their crimes at least gives human beings the courage to keep on living.
I certainly agree with M as a matter of principle; hanging Saddam after the kind of trial he had was nothing but a political farce, and there was little – if anything – to be gained from it. On the contrary, no doubt, this summary execution – even of a tyrant proven to have massacred his own people – will embolden other countries wanting to despatch their own personae non grata without having to fear too much criticism from the rest of the world…Saddam’s hanging has provided them with a precedent for how a regime can get away with a hanging after a less-than-thorough trial.
However, I am inclined to believe that the issue of capital punishment should not be dealt with in an emotional atmosphere. It has little to do with our ‘dignity’ or ‘nobility’. It has to be analyzed in a practical sense. If the crime committed is absolutely horrendous, such as child rape, serial killings, etc., and society decided that it would be in their best interest to lock up the convicted criminals for life, society would also have to get ready for the possibility of 1. their release after serving only part of the sentence, or 2. their amnesty following a change of government (and doesn’t that ring a loud bell in the Third World)…and thereafter brace themselves for a repeat of these crimes once the freed criminals walk the streets again.
So, for the most odious crimes, it would perhaps be better for such criminals to be put to death so as to protect society. It’s all very well to say that killing a person is against our dignity. But when the freed criminal rapes and murders a child AGAIN, is it our dignity we should be worrying about, or the next victim? After proper trial and conviction, if the death penalty is imposed on the exceptionally vicious criminals, no one will need fear any possibility of their release, whether it is due to change of government or otherwise.
Killing is a heinous thing indeed – but society as a whole needs to be protected. If one cares to ask the relatives of anyone who has been brutally murdered for no reason, I think one will find that this serious matter has more to do with safety and peace of mind than dignity. We should have feeling for the dignity of the innocent and for THEIR right to live without the fear that one day…that evil man behind bars might bump into them on a dark night when they are all alone.
Nevertheless, Saddam’s hanging was a grave mistake. Only time will tell what violence and bloodshed will follow in its wake, not only in Iraq as such, but in the rest of the world. I suspect such reasoning will remain ‘lettre morte’ for the likes of Bush and his supporters…
[I found your blog on Global Voices]
…As I have said elsewhere…
Interesting post, and in the spirit of balance , I invite you to include these videos on your site as well (link is below). Saddam’s style of punishment (not for the weak). I suggest Video #2 is a ‘good’ start.
Circulate this!
http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html
Without the leaked video of Saddam’s hanging, I’m sure the reactions would have been on a different level (perhaps more cognitive), so of course, the visual images are crucial (just think about the Rodney King video) to one’s argument…my links here are simply to balance the already ugly picture…
M, I couldn’t agree more with that. We cannot punish anyone for something they might do. Iraq was ‘punished’ for their supposed intention of using weapons of mass destruction on the West; and that was utter stupidity.
My point is not that people should be punished for what they MIGHT do; it is about punishing criminals who have ALREADY done horrendous things in society, and of eliminating the possibility of their ever walking the streets again. This principle would obviously have to be restricted to the most serious cases. Imagine your child and twenty others have been raped and then brutally murdered by some pervert. The guy gets several life sentences for his crimes. And then, one fine day, his best mate becomes president. He is let off after serving 25 years; a sad story repeating itself in many parts of Africa and elsewhere.
Could the mother or father of any of the victims be blamed for wanting to put a bullet through his head the minute he passes through the prison gates? As long as the guy is kept behind bars, fine. In the real world, however, there is always the possibility that leniency is later shown to him.
We cannot risk letting dangerous, crazy people out on the streets whose behaviour remains unpredictable any more than we can allow lions to roam our city streets. They may not have eaten anyone yet…but they are put down just in case. Obviously a human being is worth more than a beast. But I believe most people would agree that one who rapes and murders children is DEFINITELY worth less – and is more dangerous than – an innocent animal. And whereas lions might be shut up in zoos, no one will ever lobby for them to be released back onto the street. Things are not that straightforward in the case of monsters of the human type. Who can tell what political attitudes will be like thirty years from now?
So capital punishment is not necessarily a question of pre-empting crimes. It is a question of using common sense in the case of people who have already repeatedly caused death and atrocious suffering in the past and who could be a threat to people if the system somehow lets them back into society in future.
In principle, I therefore agree that no one should be punished for things they might do, for no one knows the future. But we do know the past. And if the past was pure horror, then the only way to make sure it is not repeated is to eliminate the threat completely.
Surely, if the principle of a life for a life applies anywhere, it should apply to the case of compulsive murderers. Something akin to that is applied during war; when a nation is being attacked, soldiers of the belligerent side are shot on sight in an attempt to prevent them from causing any further damage. Most people who believe in justified self-defence will not feel repulsed by the killing of such enemy soldiers, in order to protect their society from harm, even if none of them can predict what a soldier will do next. But the risk is too great to let them live; so they are eliminated.
It is man’s inherent noble nature that makes the killing of any human being a hateful thing. That is the rule, but there are exceptions. If fully justified self-defence is removed from the equation, soon there will BE no man on earth. And what can be more justified than to wish to eliminate a brute who has been killing our children with relish. We would be most unwise to keep monsters like those alive until they are released. This is what happens in the real world, unfortunately. No life sentence is guaranteed to be followed through. If that can DEFINITELY be assured, then fine, let them live.
Sadly, it cannot.
Two cases out of many, to illustrate the point:
Dec. 8 2006: Released to kill again?
Freed in ’82 case of four Chicago slayings, man is charged in another killing.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16095797/
Even as recently as in 2002,British Home Secretary David Blunkett has had to fight the European Court of Human Rights “…to ensure that murderers sentenced to “whole life” prison tariffs will not be freed…”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2012232.stm
If nations such as the UK and the USA can’t – or won’t – keep their worst criminals behind bars, one can only wonder what could be expected of Third World nations.
I hate the death penalty, M… But I am alarmed by what vicious criminals already convicted of horrendous crimes could do if released. I am not disturbed by the feeling of not having made these brutal murderers suffer enough by not keeping them behind bars until they die of natural causes. If they are put to death and all they lose is a whole life of punishment behind bars, then so be it, in order to protect society should they ever be released.
I think the families of the victims should be allowed to decide whether they want the murderer to get a prison sentence and that they be financially compensated for their loss or whether they would rather see his life be taken for having robbed them of a loved one. And the State should be responsible for carrying out the sentence. It is after having watched dozens of such people, as well as senior judges and members of the Police force in Western nations, express their feelings on these issues that I have come to this conclusion. That is in no way like what Saddam did, according to his whims and without any trial, to the ones he feared.
Still, I am against the hanging of Saddam. He should have had a fair trial, perhaps in an international court of law to ensure fairness; and his case should arguably have been dealt with in the special context of why and how he became what he did. It’s sad that the ones who made, trained and armed him will not be brought to justice in the foreseeable future. I hope they will.
I hope you don’t mind the longish posts, M. I hope I’m keeping the debate going! I’m thankful that you raising the issues that are important to us all.
Oops! Sorry M, I think I sent you the same post twice…apologies…
Two things:
1. This event was a grim reminder of the veracity of the statement: “Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.”
2. I would hesitate to sacrifice justice at the altar of feel-good mushiness. In every circumstance concerning the taking of another human life, above all – Justice must be served. Make no mistake – Anyone who loves freedom and democracy places himself/herself in harm’s way when they refuse to deal with the grim decision that they have to make when dealing with those who do not respect the sanctity of life. Life is sacred. Anyone who deliberately and without remorse takes the life of another human being deserves no less than death.
MyAfricaToday Media is a multi-media content service provider, systems technology developer and one of the largest electronic distributor of African news and information worldwide. Registered in United States, with offices in Michigan, Dar es salaam, Nairobi and Kampala., MyAfricaToday is one of a family of companies that aggregate, produce and distribute news from across Africa to tens of millions of end users.
M,
On this issue, I would respectfully (and with a measure of trepidation, given your satirical abilities) disagree with you. Let us consider the statement that killing inmates reduces us to their level. If this argument were to be taken to its logical conclusion, then all forms of sanction would be declared immoral as all involve the denial of some fundamental right (life, liberty and property) which the criminal has previously denied to his victims. Prison terms, fines and community service require that we curtail the enjoyment of fundamental freedoms. Surely, abolishing all forms of punishment would be unlikely to deliver a society safe from crime.
By its very definition punishment implies denial of certain rights. A society that moots the denial of fundamental rights has cause to worry about its future.
Secondly, to state that we cannot demand an-eye-for-an-eye recompense is to put the criminal himself in the position of determining what can or cannot be done to him. Since we do not wish to be like thieves, then society cannot take for itself a thief’s hard earned property through a system of fines. The very act of thieving would thus deprive society of resort to this kind of punishment and kidnapping would automatically outlaw jail sentences. The criminals would be the new legislators.
1) You are not willing to pay them
2) Your money is taken from you; and you have no say
3) If you refuse to comply there could be nasty conseqenses
Further, your example also suffers from the fact that it is not scalable. If a thief steals 50,000 from a MP’s house and the following day steals 50,000 from a children’s home, confiscating the said 50,000 is hardly corresponding punishment in both cases.
Your objection to the deterrent value of capital punishment is similarly flawed. All form of punishment is geared to achieving three goals: compensation, rehabilitation and deterrence. We jail thieves so as:
1) to get some sort of compensatory justice in that they got what was coming to them;
2) to attempt within the prison system, to rehabilitate them by showing them the error of their ways and hopefully giving them a socially acceptable alternative course of action; and
3) to deter him and other would-be criminals by promising similar treatment (in the famous words of Vioja Mahakamani, ili iwe funzo kwa wengine wenye tabia kama hiyo).
The deterrence value of punishment (capital or otherwise) is an important safeguard for society. And it does involve an element of (to paraphrase M) punishing someone for sins both he and others are yet to commit. However, by engaging in criminal activity, one does forfeit one’s rights and society can then rightfully proceed to impose sanction.
And I am still quesy with the thought of being hanged or imprisoned by something that I might do. This completely negates the fundamental tenent of natural justice — innocent until proven guilty
I find your point number 5 quite strong. you can see with our own despot down here in kenya. but again its only good if his victims were empored else they suffer more by seeing their tomentor alive. i am thinking of the pinochets and amins of this world
M,
I was simply taking your argument to its logical conclusion. If the fact of denial of a fundamental human right (life) is what makes the death penalty immoral, then all forms of punishment would be similarly immoral and objectionable as they also require similar denial. If you have no problem with these other forms of punishment, then you have to acknowledge a double standard and the onus would be on you to explain why.
Secondly, even in the case of thievery, the punishment is not in repossessing the ill-gotten gains. That is merely restitution and does not constitute a penalty paid by the thief. A fine such as I was referring to is one that is paid over and above the value of the stolen cash or merchandise.
Finally, an executed criminal is paying for his past crimes and his death serves as a deterrent to future criminal activity. He is not hanged for what he might do, but for what he has already done. However in deciding for or against the death penalty, society weighs what is in its best interests. Mercy is a privilege not a right. Neither is the opportunity for rehabilitation a right. If it serves society’s best interests to rehabilitate, then by all means we should. But by the same token, if our interests are better served by deterring other criminals and at the same time eliminating a clear and present danger, then I see nothing immoral in doing so.
And if you’ve not watched the David Gale story, I highly recommend that you do. It offers an interesting perspective to this debate
Even allowing for some non-fundamental rights (whatever that would mean), surely liberty would rank as fundamental. Would it be accurate then to assume that you are also against imprisonment as a form of punishment? If not, then do you acknowledge the double standard?
The goals of punishment do not imply rights for convicted felons. They are simply the objectives that the society wishes to achieve. If some of the objectives cannot be achieved, or have to be sacrificed to achieve higher goals, then that does not constitute an injury to the rights of the convict.
I would agree that it is difficult to prove or disprove the deterrence value of capital punishment but it does stand to reason that if people instantly dropped dead every time they committed a murder, then there would be very few murders.
It is difficult to fathom any rights one would enjoy without the right to liberty. A distant second? I don’t think so.
Second, one does forfeit certain rights by virtue of crime. Why should the “fundamental” right to life be exempt?
Actually societies with a basic eye-for-an-eye justice system fare much better when it comes to the murder rate. Just look at China, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
The right to life is itself contingent on other rights. Difficult to live if, for example, you are denied access to food and water or the means to acquire them. The system of rights is mutually reinforcing. Denial of any immediately imperils enjoyment of all others.
You have not explained why the right to life is exempt from the other rights that may be forfeited through crime.
We are unlikely to change each other’s minds so I suggest we agree to disagree
I like to think that Arabs, Persians and Chinese are just as corruptible and violent as the rest of humanity.
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